Bulletin Board: Ko'olau UV/Hand Rubbed Varnish Finishes.

Original Post By: wearymicrobe Date: 11/15/2007 5:43:18 PM Couple questions from a new poster here. I have been looking at a Ko'olau 300 it has the "hand rubbed finish" looks amazing but how does this compare to say something like a kanile'a UV cured finish in terms of durability. This is the one that caught my eye. I play very aggressively with nails and slap and have worn a hole into my flea. putting a dent or scratch into this one would hurt. My Kanile'a has held up really well but I attribute it to the finish more then anything different in construction. They also make a satin finish in the 100's which might be a middle ground. http://www.theblueguitar.com/item.php?item_id=266 http://www.theblueguitar.com/item.php?item_id=254 My current uke is the one above and I really like it but I want to start playing around with alternate tunings and I would keep the new one in standard and use me kanile'a for everything else. Posted By: 808bk Date: 11/15/2007 6:49:22 PM My Koolau has the clear pickguard on it. There's been some discussion on the pickguard's effect on the sound, but I really haven't noticed any difference. Posted By: Craig Date: 11/15/2007 7:58:40 PM John Kitakis is the person to ask this question. I know his customer service is excellent. Posted By: Grandpa Jim Date: 11/15/2007 8:04:16 PM Indeed, John Kitakis can answer this and probably will in due time. The gloss finish on my Pono seems indestructible. However, I've only had it for a couple of years, not time enough to destroy it. It shows no wear whatsoever. Jim Posted By: wearymicrobe Date: 11/15/2007 11:03:23 PM John told me it was close to a violin finish which is not very durable. I played for 10 years and you rarely are actually touching the instrument its all neck and chin rest. So I hope a owner on a 200+ with that finish will step in and give there opinion. Posted By: Ko'olau Date: 11/17/2007 3:12:59 AM For durability, either a UV (sprayed on and quickly cured by use of ultra violet lighting), lacquer (either waterbased or nitro-cellulose), or polyester coatings are best. Yes, tone is sacrificed, but the instrument is well protected. Of the three, a nitro-cellulose lacquer, if applied professionally will be the least suppressive or dampening of the vibration of woods, but also the most costly. A varnish finish (resins combined with either spirits, alcohol or oils) first coats wiped or sprayed on, and then final coats rubbed or french polished becomes the thinnest and hardest of all finishes, however, because of the extremely thin coating, this becomes the most vulnerable to damage. If an instrument is going to be subject to extreme wear, played professionally in abusive, sweaty, alcohol soaked settings, or for whatever reason you want it too look "new" forever, then don't choose a varnish finish. Initially, a varnish coat, if done right, looks beautiful, but rarely looks as perfectly "candy apple" or "surfboard" as a synthetic finish. And after years of use it will look "used." Still good, but slightly worn, like an old violin. However, the lustruous depth and clarity of wood grain is amazingly beautiful. And because there is very little finish, again, if properly applied, this finish allows the woods to move, to vibrate, and to breathe most freely. Keep in mind also, because of the costs of naturally extruded botanical resins and extreme labor time to apply, varnish finishes are very very expensive, and rarely offered on inexpensive guitars or 'ukuleles. If a french polished varnish is offered, and applied correctly, expect to pay between $500 and $1000 EXTRA (beyond the cost of the instrument). For many, this is more than they could ever imagine paying for the whole instrument, let alone the finish. But much of this has to do with attitude. Since a Ford or Chevy, Toyota, or BMW is often bought these days for $30,000 plus, obviously then a car is of much more value to today's consumer, and so sadly an 'ukulele is still thought of as a cheap, fun toy. Some guitars and mandolins on the market today, with a varnish finish cost between $10,000 and $40,000. However, to justify the cost, again, go back to the Ford (or whatever make) and realize that an auto of the same cost will last no more than 10 to 15 years, whereas a stringed instrument, if cared for properly, will be around for 500 years or more! An heirloom gift to our children's children. And each generation will inherit better tone and volume with aging. But we have all been programmed nowdays with a "throw-away" mentality, and willing to pay much more for so called "necessary" items rather than luxury ('ukuleles). If we buy lunch (or breakfast) each day, say an average of $5.00 each day, 5 days per week, that's $25 per week, x 52 weeks, we have spent $1300.00. So, eating a Big Mac each day is of more value than buying a $1300.00 'ukulele. You say, "but I have to eat" True, eating is valuable, it is to me, but if I really wanted something bad enough I would rearrange my priorities. But back to finishes, for production cost effectiveness (i.e. to make an instrument that is profitable and one that people can afford) then one of the modern finishes, either UV, lacquer (waterbased or nitrocellose), or polyester is the only affordable option. And in most cases, don't worry, it will look fine, sound good, and be durable. Posted By: wearymicrobe Date: 11/17/2007 11:32:58 PM To be honest cost really does not come into it with me, I just want what will fit my situation best, not to be flippant but a grand for a finish does not scare me. I come from the violin/cello world where high five figures is not uncommon for a player instrument. The ukulele is honestly one of the few instruments that you can collect the best because costs are down, Mandolin is another. I have just started a little collections but hopefully before the end of the year I will have my kanile'a, one ordered from you, my Ogata is coming in the mail and an Ana'ole tenor. There are a few other new builders who I have my eye on who are coming up as well. Shawn is going to have a bunch of my money thats for sure. Sounds like the UV cure is going to be best for me. Just the way I play and the fact that I travel with my ukes a bit. Now to pick wood and such. Since I know Koa works well with the UV finish I more then likely go that route. I saw the pineapple concert that you guys have on the site and that really catches my eye, I should be good for tenors for a while and might go that route. I will draw up what I want and have the guys at blue guitar pass it on to you later this year. Posted By: duane Date: 11/18/2007 12:11:03 AM UV finish is fine if that is what you want. It is however, that hardest finish to repair if you damage one of your ukes. The easiest to repair is shellac and if money isn't an issue, that would be the best choice in all situations. I personally would never want a UV finish on any of my instruments. Would you buy a fine cello or violin with a UV finish? Why would a uke be any different? Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/18/2007 12:13:07 AM " If a french polished varnish is offered, and applied correctly, expect to pay between $500 and $1000 EXTRA (beyond the cost of the instrument)." ::::faints, then puts Glyph in hermetically sealed vault:::: Posted By: Ko'olau Date: 11/18/2007 1:17:54 AM It's refreshing to hear comments like the one from wearymicrobe, with a realistic viewpoint on high quality, and what it costs to have it. True, 'ukulele is currently a good deal, that is until it "graduates" to the big leagues as a real, professional instrument, along with the violin and mandolin family. To be fair (to all those out of touch with reality of what high quality costs) in each catagory of instrument, guitars, mandolins, violins, piano, etc. there is a wide variety of quality and prices. But now, after many years, we are finally seeing more and more 'ukulele performers and collectors willing to pay what has been the norm for high end mandolins, violins, and guitars. There's more money making junk, but more pride and integrity in making it right. Posted By: wearymicrobe Date: 11/18/2007 1:44:33 AM   (Updated: 11/18/2007 1:45:21 AM) Cannot sleep so going to post some more. As a side we are also seeing more and more really quality builders popping up, I am going to do sound samples of everything that I have and host it in the beginning on next year. Hopefully that will get a few of the small builders for whom I have great deal of respect something on the web. And a place for others who are home brewing a way to show what they can do and maybe sell a few to get there name out. If they want to send me samples. On that note I think that demand for the better instruments will be blossoming in the next 3-4 years. The buyers will be there (Cited Below) I have been going to seminars and quick little shows and there are a good number of new people, heck at the last NAMM show where our web host presented we had at least 100 people in the room 33% or so new to the instrument. They are the ones that are going to be buying up the chain, I have seen several from the last year go from Flukes to Pono's and now looking beyond. I do think that Ko'olau should post how to French polish on there web site, when you see the attention to detail it takes and the hours 500-1000$ is a bargain, and really anything other then mahogany and koa it needs to be at least considered. Quick example of a modern instrument with a FP. The skills and equipment requirements for construction are nearly the same for a player uke to a player classical. Ebay 140180210559 "Edited to keep a sane format." going to try to sleep now. Posted By: William King Date: 11/18/2007 10:20:50 AM Duane, as usual I generally agree with you but you should see what sitting in a USPS truck in summer in Texas can do to a french polished finish. On UV cured finishes, my guess is that they were invented and are adopted to improve manufacturing productivity, not quality. Right now i'm fond of the tung oil / resin / waxed finishes on koa and mahogany. John, integrity, pride and quality are all words that could reasonably be spoken of the way Bob Dillon spoke of freedom - "freedom is a word i rarely use without thinking". I have a small round stone, a found object, sitting by the back door that is full of pride, integrity and quality and it doesn't have a glossy lacquer finish. But i know what you mean fron personal experience and generally agree with your approach, though pride never paid the rent :-) Posted By: duane Date: 11/18/2007 12:27:17 PM William, I know how hard the shippers can be on instruments, not a pretty site. I have avoided shipping in extreme weather conditions when the need arises. I generally use thin nitro lacquer for most ukes and have never had a problem. I know UV finishes are tough and travel well and the industry had gone in that direction. Personally, I just can't stand the stuff and the plastic look. I am turning away repair work of more high-end guitars with chips and cracks. I guess that is just one of the trade offs for a quick finish process. Posted By: Grandpa Jim Date: 11/18/2007 2:09:09 PM Perhaps the best plan for a serious instrument is French polish, anticipating periodic refinishing indefinitely. So far as shipping is concerned, ship it like live lobsters, with cold packs. Jim Posted By: wearymicrobe Date: 11/18/2007 2:54:56 PM The refinishing I think is where you get problems, to much oil or lack of drying time in between applications, to much alcohol used for cutting flakes so that it gets gummy. Cold packs could work, but I get major condensation when I ship on cold packs. The face could be protected with one of those little plastic sheilds like they use on classical guitars but they need to be removed after playing every time. Posted By: Grandpa Jim Date: 11/18/2007 3:39:10 PM You're right about condensation. It would require enclosing the instrument in a tight inner package with desicant. What I had in mind by refinishing is what is done with ancient stringed instruments. Of course, ukuleles endure a lot more physical contact than, say, violins. So, as someone already said, it may not be a totally apt comparison. William King may have the best answer. Jim Posted By: William King Date: 11/18/2007 4:10:48 PM   (Updated: 11/18/2007 4:17:05 PM) Duane, i don't care much for the UV cured or catalyzed finishes either. But i think customers for the most part have accepted them, and no doubt they have their place. Uncle Jim, i think the vast majority of ukulele owners would destroy a nice french polish finish in a few months of playing. Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/18/2007 4:43:52 PM Who's Bob Dillon? Posted By: Craig Date: 11/18/2007 4:56:01 PM For Nina: He was around the same time as the "Meatles"...;) Bob Dylan Posted By: William King Date: 11/18/2007 5:40:47 PM Detales, detales ! Posted By: Dave Means Date: 11/18/2007 10:35:44 PM OK... as the builder on this forum who uses nothing but French polish, I feel obliged to throw in my two cents worth. I was amused by Ko'olau's assertion that a good French polished finish would add $500-$1000 to the price of an instrument... wish that it were so! I spend the last two to three weeks of the construction time on my ukes French polishing, but I thoroughly enjoy doing it... and I enjoy the satisfaction I get in knowing that it will allow the best sonic potential from the instrument, and that no other finish will "pop" the figure in that beautiful wood as well and look as warm and inviting. Yeah, it is not the most durable of finishes... especially around alcohol... but it probably approaches nitrocellulose lacquer once it has had the opportunity to fully cure. And, unlike lacquers, or the newer catalyzed finishes, it won't chip! As Duane says, it is the easiest to repair or retouch... invisibly. I like to think I build heirlooms, and I hope my customers will treat them as such. They can play the hell outta them, but as long as they have reasonable technique and care enough not to abuse them, they should hold up fine. If they don't, I'll fix them. Different strokes, I guess... --Dave Posted By: Ko'olau Date: 11/19/2007 2:34:28 PM For builders making a few instruments per year, say 20 to 30 or so, offering optional finishes is not really an issue. You offer what you like to do, what you like best, and customers either agree or not. Dave, if you WISH the $500-$1000 extra were so, then go for it. If they like your 'ukuleles they will pay the extra amount. Again, if properly done, customers WILL pay the extra amount. Of course, if you offer this finish and NOT charge what you say is an extra three weeks of labor then there is no one to blame but yourself. People are naturally going to grab the best deal available, no one is willingly going to give you a $1000 tip. Your customers are going to be perfectly happy to have a good finish at a cheap price, so maybe they are now spoiled. But you say you enjoy it, so maybe you should not wish for the extra $1000. Also, as for job security, you will stay backlogged with orders for the next 10 years. And if you have a very low overhead operation, i.e. at home, no employees (no employee insurances, taxes, benefits, etc) you will probably come out ahead of all of the rest of us. In a "production" setting things become different, not better, just different. At Ko'olau, as with others offering a varnish finish, such as Collings, we have our "production" finish (high quality, Mohawk Stringed Instrument nitro-cellulose lacquer). It produces a good sounding instrument, and also very durable and economical, compared to varnishes. (We do not use a UV finish, but there are several high end instrument manufacturers now that incorporate a UV as base coats, and their instruments sound and look good). For a few years I tried exclusive French Polishing, but number one, my arm was ready to fall off with the amount we were producing, and number two, as King mentioned, most players do not appreciate the need for the special care necessary with a varnished finish, and would destroy it in a short time. Also, as was mentioned, Pride does not pay the bills. For production people, this is not a hobby, this is not a fun "craft," ... yes, we ARE "proud" of what we produce, we do enjoy seeing satisfied customers, but the bottom line is work, business, customer service, headaches, frustrations, and finding good employees with a passion for high quality craftsmanship. So, we also want to be "proud" that we paid the rent. After we discontinued a varnish French Polish for a period of time we had customers still requesting this finish, and very willing to pay the extra cost, which is currently $500 (most production manufacturers charge $1000 plus). So now we offer both. As you mentioned, different strokes. It's good that we are all striving to provide high quality instruments to a variety of people. Posted By: William King Date: 11/19/2007 3:49:54 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 4:21:44 PM) $500 is inexpensive John, French polishing is a lot of work, and it takes a lot of skill and practice to do it well. Just out of curiosity, what proportion of your better instruments are french polished ? Posted By: Kanile'a Joe Souza Date: 11/19/2007 4:58:05 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 5:45:28 PM) Aloha 'ukulele lovers and fellow builders, I felt compelled to chime in on this entry to shed some light on my experience with UV and how we found success in our shop with this relatively new finish to our industry. In order clarify certain issues and to help bring everyone up to speed... Ultra Violet technology has been around for years. It’s usage in the automotive, cabinetry and other woodworking industries have been over 30+ years. Currently, its popularity in our industry has been very sudden which naturally stimulates interesting thoughts and opinions. The guitar industry trend has led more builders both manufactures and solo builders to convert to UV. Here is the magical question… WHY! The first attraction for me was the beauty that is created by this finish. The clarity, its ability to highlight the natural beauty of grain along with creating that “wet” look was very appealing to me. As I researched and found that this durable, true high gloss finish is intended to last the life of the instrument along with its ability to expand and contract with the wood. This beneficial ability to expand and contract with the wood lessons the chances of cold checking or cracking which we all know is a natural occurrence for nitrocellulose based finishes. Prior to committing to all the equipment that would allow us to achieve this desired finish, I learned of the environmental benefits that UV offered. This new found knowledge secured our commitment to UV technology. Before UV, we strived for that high gloss finish that nitrocellulose offered. Now in doing so we exposed ourselves to the harmful release of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC’s). These VOC’s are not good for our environment nor are they healthy for the individuals who work with them. Of course, taking the necessary respiratory precautions along with utilizing an approved spray booth is only half the battle. These VOC’s are released into our working environment while the finish cures and unless you are wearing the proper respiratory protection all day long you are exposed to these harmful gases. On a side note, in order for us control our humidity in the shop here in Hawai’i; we need to dry the air in our working environment to keep our relative humidity around 44-46%. This is achieved by sealing our work environment and controlling our relative humidity with dehumidifiers and air conditioners. This “sealed” environment does not allow for the proper release of these VOC’s resulting in potential harm to our crew and anyone who visits our shop. So, yes, our “work in progress time” was saved by eliminating the curing time that came with the VOC rich nitrocellulose finish. The actual “hands on the instrument time” was expanded because of the added steps of two extra grain fills, sanding and detailing in between coats, final hand rubbing and buffing this durable finish. With consideration to the learning curve that UV requires to achieve a thin (3-4 mil) high gloss finish. Looking at all these facets along with the 300% cost difference across the board for product and the high cost for the equipment that is required to do UV. What is our goal… to provide the best sounding, highest quality, with ease of playability along with being environmentally friendly? My answer is yes. In my eyes, the benefits to UV far out weighed the consequences that came with our old nitrocellulose finish. Thank you for your time. Joe Souza Posted By: Aaron Oya Date: 11/19/2007 5:10:17 PM I'd like to interject a point that John "pre-responded" - for those reading this thread, there is a LOT of between the line statements from the experienced builders above that if you pay attention, you'll see what is being said. For Catalyzed finishes, duane made the statement that's the way the industry is going. True, but I think its going that way because the market is demanding pore free finishes, and is driving it in that direction as a result, not a cause. Hence, the technology arises to improve manufacturing. Okay, Willam said that already. I was going to pull this punch, but John opened the door, and I'll follow - Dave, you need to charge more. If you pay yourself a "cheap" $20 an hour to FP (and since its an art form, $20 is really cheap), and your 40 hours in one week will add $800 just for your finish. I've seen your work - you deserve it. On the other hand, I challenge anyone to say that spraying a finish, by hand, is NOT an art form. I'll further this and say that spraying catalyzed finishes require even more skills. So, technically, a poly finish should cost more than Nitro, maybe. And a UV poly even more due to the equipment investment, which some would say should be eaten by the manufacturer because they don't HAVE to use UV poly, they could just shoot poly (I could agree with that somewhat). Personally, once the instrument is glued up, I say its half way done, because now the finishing process starts. I've put together an instrument in 2 days (of course, everything was "done" prior to assembly), yet it took me over a month to deliver. Where did the rest of the time come from? Finishing. Posted By: Ko'olau Date: 11/19/2007 5:40:49 PM thanks Joe, helps everyone to know the truth about UV finishes, rather than listen to those who "think" they know. And those who say it's not for them still want a beautiful, professionally applied, pore filled,high gloss finish, but usually not willing to pay the price. And William King: about 5% to 10% of production is done with a french polished varnish. and yes, $500 is cheap, considering the time involved. Two factors are involved, one, 'ukulele buyers usually are cheap, not all, but most, again as I mentioned before because of attitude toward the 'ukulele as a toy. But not all customers. We, as for you, still have loyal customers who highly value the 'ukulele and are willing to pay the price. We just recently introduced our varnish finish after research trips to France and Italy to study various techniques, and purchase of rare and expensive resins. So as a "re" introduction we are offering this option for $500 for 2008, and then re-evaluate later in the year. Besides current orders, we will display all available finishes at the January NAMM show. I should note too that our varnish finish is somewhat different than was offered years ago, now more professionally applied to appear not much different than a near perfect nitro-cellulose finish, only thinner and producing a richer clarity of grain and color. aloha, John Posted By: William King Date: 11/19/2007 5:56:40 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 6:32:47 PM) yes thanks Joe. its interesting to hear the experiences of a production shop now using UV cured finishes. Lest we all start thinking that we can save the planet now if we'd only all start using UV cured finishes, what is the lacquer you use made from and how is it produced ? And John, why did you choose nitrocellulose over a UV cured polyurethane lacquer ? Btw, if you use fine and rare resins, oils and pigments from around the world in your own varnish or french polish compositions, check out Kramer in NYC http://sinopia.com/kremer.html and Talas http://talasonline.com . Posted By: hoaryhead Date: 11/19/2007 6:39:08 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 6:39:33 PM) This is a very interesting discussion. Out of curiosity, what did Martin use in its heyday, and what are they using now on the 5K & Daisy finish? Posted By: Kanile'a Joe Souza Date: 11/19/2007 6:42:42 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 6:44:45 PM) Aloha William, It is nice to meet informally you here in cyber-space. To answer your question; our product we use is manufactured by Lawrence-McFadden. We utilize F-7998 UV cured filler and R-1778 UV cured sealer/topcoat. As far as their manufacturing process I am not to sure about what that entails. What I do know, the product is Polyester-based that has a photochemical reactive agent that when exposed to the right frequency of UV light the product cures, allowing us to detail and buff the finish. Btw, you build beautiful instruments. I was able to play a concert that MGM brought to one of our ‘Ukulele Club meetings… A gorgeous instrument! Take care, Joe Souza Posted By: William King Date: 11/19/2007 6:54:05 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 8:15:22 PM) Joe, i think its quite misleading to encourage people to believe that these finishes are more environmentally friendly than nitrocellulose. They are industrial finishes, they're plastic, they're made in industries with smokestacks, there is nothing particularly environmental friendly about them. Unless they're water based, organic solvents are still involved in their use. You can bet that organic solvents were involved in their manufacture. Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/19/2007 7:01:46 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 7:11:13 PM) What's wrong with something like tru-oil? I really dislike heavy glossy finishes, I think they look ostentatious in a tacky nouveau-riche sort of way. I like when the wood has a presence that it does with just a simple oil finish. I wonder if all this gloss nonsense is really necessary. Most of my best and most treasured ukuleles don't have gloss. The only one that does is the Larrivee and its lovely sound makes up for it. I have to echo Hoaryhead, what did Martin and Kamaka and Kumalae and company do back in the day? Of course the French polish on the Glyph is more beautiful than any, though to me it's not really a gloss either. It's a patina. Posted By: musicguymic Date: 11/19/2007 7:06:18 PM Having watched both Koolau and Kanilea do they finishes and attended many discussions and seminars on the sucject I can say it is the least enjoyed part of what Most makers like to do. Yet second to tonal quality it is one of the most picked on critiques by customers. Todays general population equates quality with a glasslike poreless finish as many of the builders are now achieving and feel that a pored lacquer finish is inferior in their minds. I often get the comments that a import chinese uke has a better finish than the expensive made in hawaii ukuleles. Although much is a matter of tatse few reconize that the import smooth finish is usually three to 5 times as thick 9 (or more) as the finishes fine makers and custom builders are trying to achieve with the same result. I have heard from a close associate who visited one of the import factories and found that they sprayed three or four coats on....heavy dripping runs no matter coats then leveled abd buffed for the finish... True...french polish gives a great look and sound but after a few strums by a nailed hard player and its trashed. These fine makers are all trying to find the comman middle ground that works best for them. Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/19/2007 7:12:31 PM Those players need to learn to strum over the fretboard and not over the body. Posted By: William King Date: 11/19/2007 7:13:55 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 7:27:30 PM) Nancy, i'm getting to like you :-) I agree. but tru-oil and tung oil based finished don't work well on softwoods like spruce or cedar. On mahogany and koa they are nice. I think the market has been conditioned to associate gloss with quality over a long period of time. As far as i can tell, its an American thing. Traditionally the Japanese in particular and the east in general has appreciated the more natural looking finishes, including wood finishes which have been scoured by brush to remove the softer parts of the wood surface, leaving the harder winter rings proud and wood finishes that have been planed with extremely sharp hand planes (kanna) and left unfinished. On the other hand, when they do a lacquer finish, they do it deep enough to carve ! Posted By: Bill Martino Date: 11/19/2007 7:34:37 PM NinaC said: "Those players need to learn to strum over the fretboard and not over the body." You're just kidding, right? Posted By: William King Date: 11/19/2007 7:42:21 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 7:43:01 PM) Aaron, on the ... umm, err, ahem ... subject you raised - i thought twice about building ukuleles when i saw the price Dave was selling his very high quality work for - Dave's positioning in the market probably provides a real disincentive to other new low volume hand builders considering building ukuleles. I don't know if Dave has considered the effect of this or not. Its tough to compete with someone who, by their own admission, doesn't need the money. Perhaps its intentional ? Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/19/2007 7:48:39 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 7:56:37 PM) Bill Martino said: "NinaC said: "Those players need to learn to strum over the fretboard and not over the body." You're just kidding, right?" Not at all. You don't need to flail away and hit the upper bout when you play, that's just a matter of modifying technique. I've never done that and I play quite hard on occasion. None of my ukes show strumwear because I strum over the fretboard close to where it meets the body. William, I honestly suspect we'd agree on more things that we've disagreed upon. I look forward to meeting you one day. I think I'd like those rough Japanese finishes, too. The wood should be able to speak to the player and it's tough to do that through a big artificial coating. Posted By: Clark Turner Date: 11/19/2007 8:00:21 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 9:05:55 PM) This has been a most interesting thread. Thanks to the professional builders who've shared their experiences. It's a privilege to listen in on such informed discussion. I hope the optimism about the ukuele's standing among instruments is actually happening. But after 65+ years of playing, my hopes are equalled by my fears. It seems that whenever the ukulele starts making a comeback, someone comes along and reinforces the "toy" image, and we start over again. (Yes, TT was one of them. I wonder what would have happened if he'd played a different instrument?) In any event, we can enjoy the music and the instrument, nevermind the public image. (BTW - I agree with Nancy -- it's perfectly possible to play well without beating up the instrument. None of my ukes have strum marks). Posted By: Dave in Petaluma Date: 11/19/2007 9:04:03 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 9:14:12 PM) In my limited exeriance, 5 years repairing and some refinishing. I have found that French polishing techniques are a wonderfull way to do this. The older ukuleles demand it. and when refinishing a dip job the end product is lighter and feels better. As an amateur the time spent does not effect cost. I personally enjoy the seeing the wood come to life with each rubbing. It becomes a process oriented endeavor and gives you a real conectedness with the instrument. For someone who is not trying to pay bills this low tech application of finishes is a very satifactory way to get into repairing and refinishing. Reading and responding to this thread has driven me back to the shop for another round with the old T shirts, fletpads, denatured alcohol, and lacquer. Posted By: Dave Means Date: 11/19/2007 9:05:59 PM Jeez, William... I'm not positioning myself in the market with the intent of hurting other builders! I'm only building about 20-24 instruments a year for God's sake... I could give them away and not have a significant effect on the market! In case you haven't noticed, though, I've raised my prices 5% to 10% every six months since I went into business. I love what I'm doing, am happy doing it for "pin money", and -- at this late stage in my life -- I'm just thrilled to be able to provide a few heirloom-quality instruments to musicians who might not be able to afford the high-priced spread. I'm not going to be browbeaten into feeling guilty about salting the market with a few instruments that happen to be a great value for the money. If I were doing a WalMart number, it would be another matter. Don't worry... I'll just continue to slave away Gepetto-like in my basement shop, and my volume of output is far more likely to decrease than increase (my paraplegic wife's care is demanding more and more of my time). None of you have anything to fear from me. -- Dave Posted By: Kanile'a Joe Souza Date: 11/19/2007 9:10:03 PM Aloha William, The information that I provided is based on facts. Nothing misleading when, Taylor Guitar wins an award from the EPA after employing this revolutionary finish. As an owner I have a responsibility to my customer, my crew and the environment. I see the environmentally friendly portion as a bonus to this remarkable finish. We enjoy working with this product and how it has allowed us to be different than any other ‘ukulele builder. Mahalo, Joe Souza Posted By: William King Date: 11/19/2007 9:22:22 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 9:47:14 PM) Dave, no worries - no fear. But your output isn't really relevant - you are creating expectations in the market of quality at a price that commercial builder's can not meet (price, not quality :-) And i don't want to speak for anyone else but i think I heard John and Aaron say something like that too. I occassionally get customers who will say to me: "Dave Means does french polish for free, how come you don't include it standard, why should I have to pay extra for it ?" Of course, i tell 'em to call Dave :-) Posted By: William King Date: 11/19/2007 9:24:08 PM   (Updated: 11/19/2007 10:02:51 PM) Joe, i've heard you make real nice stuff and you sound like a nice responsible young man and i'm not trying to get on your case especially :-) Tell me you like the look of it, tell me its quicker or easier, tell me it costs less, tell me anything but please don't tell me that its environmentally friendly, EPA or no EPA :-) I think Rick Turner also uses UV cured finishes btw. It'd be interesting to hear from Rick. Posted By: duane Date: 11/19/2007 9:40:45 PM Speaking from the repairman's point of view right now, no one who uses UV finishes has addressed the issue of repairs to this finish. Instruments get damaged for many reasons. UV or urethane is a sheet of thin plastic. Once it has cured, any additional coats will not adhere, nor will any other finish. One accepted method of repair is the use of thin super glues for fill and then sand and polish the area. You will always see the repair. Sand a UV finish and it will make a white line on the edge. It does not buff easy. Another accepted method of repair is to completely remove the finish and do it over. To me, this would be a warranty nightmare. UV finish will not keep the wood from cracking. No finish will. Some Taylor guitars have come into my shop with finish stress cracks around the bridge. The wood moves, the finish doesn't... something has got to give. Taylor told one one my customers that this is a natural occurence and not to worry about it. The guitar was one year old. Nitro lacquer can be amalgamated and soften to be repaired. If done right it looks great. I have done this on many vintage instruments without a problem. My spray booth is isolated from the rest of my work space. You should never work in a space where the finish is curing. Shellac french polish is the easiest to repair. Oils can be refreshed without much difficulty. UV is becoming more wide spread on furniture also. A furniture repairman just down the road from my shop doesn't think much of it either. He used industrial strength liquid strippers in his business. These strippers will not remove UV or urethane finishes. UV has to be sanded off. Not very environmentally friendly stuff coming off either. As I stated above, the industry is moving toward UV finishes, I have no problem with that. I send customers back to place they purchased their instrument if they need UV finish repairs. They aren't too happy about that, but that's as it should be. Posted By: Aaron Oya Date: 11/19/2007 10:27:17 PM Don't worry William, you read correctly, and I agree. I actually had a friend tell me that my instruments were too cheap, but I wasn't comfortable with the thought of my instruments costing more than a factory one. While using the term "chastised" is a little strong, I have to admit that a few years later, I did the same thing to another friend of mine, who actually has overhead (as John explains). He is now comfortable with charging over $2K on a base model. I still think he's too cheap. Most instruments at the Exhibition this weekend were over the $2K range, if they were for sale. Dave, no excuses necessary. Just revel in the fact that your fellow builders on this board do feel that you are (possibly) undercutting yourself, and take that as a compliment. Of course, acceptable too is the response that William gives in sending them to you :) I don't think any of us fear you, on the contrary, you have our support, and appreciate what you bring to the table. Although, if I were you, I'd expect a lot of calls during and after the life of this thread. I'm not sure Rick is at the UV stage right now. Last we spoke he used both Poly's (esther and urethane), and in some posts I've seen from him in another forum, the reasoning follows Joe's - clean, clear, stable and long lasting (how long does Nitro truly last?). I've been reluctant to move to catalyzed finishes, but that stems from my experience in automotive - they are TOUGH! Does this mean inflexible? I thought so. Then you take a company like McFadden's, who produce specifically for us, and you should be able to bank on their quality and application (look at their client list). duane brings up other issues that are important, and of concern to me as well, especially the refinishing process. There are positives and negatives all the way around, with whatever finish process is used. Me, I've used FP, and while doable, I don't have a large clientele that will not "bang it up". Did the Tru Oil thing - too soft, too, not there. . . So, Nitro it is. And was. Now its Polyurethane. Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/19/2007 11:36:59 PM We do a hybrid finish...on open pored woods we now start with West Systems epoxy as a pore filler, sand that to bare wood and then go to Waterlox tung oil varnish, then McFadden catalyzed urethane rosewood sealer, then three coats of McFadden polyester...catalyzed, not UV cured (for us, what's the difference between 30 seconds cure and 24 hours? Well...about ten grand for a UV booth that we don't need...). If it's to be a satined instrument, we flat sand the polyester, then shoot a coat or two of McFadden satin urethane. If it's going to be gloss, we'll flat sand, and shoot three more thin coats of polyester. The "repairability" of nitro lacquer has been grossly over-rated by many. I have yet to see a nitro repair or touch-up that isn't incredibly obvious after six months unless someone waited six months to sand and rub it back out. Then you'd better have shot some lacquer softener like Cellusolve or Behlen's Qualarenu so the fresh lacquer will burn into the old. And then you're back into a nice three or more weeks to let the touchup cure. I'm sorry, nitro lacquer just sucks in the long run. Environmentally, I don't know about the production side of the equation re. manufacturing nitro vs. polyester, but I sure know on the application side. Catalyzed finishes are done in 24 hours...done. Nitro outgasses forever, particularly in the first week. Two long time spray guys I know...Addam Stark and Fred Latta...both report much less irritation from working around poly than from nitro. We spray it all (except UV) here in my shop, and I'd also rather shoot polyester. French polish is drop-dead gorgeous, and no amount of chastising will get players to not ding it up. For those of us who depend on through store sales (my pals Paul and Joe know what I'm talking about), we absolutely have to put a ding resistant finish on most of our ukes. The last thing we need is a Music Guy Mic or Gryphon telling us that they're sending a uke back because someone breathed on it and scratched it. OK, slight exaggeration, but not much. There are hybrid systems beyond what I do, too. Dana Bourgeois and Bill Collings both shoot thin nitro over polyester build coats so they can get that melting burnishing that you get when you buff nitro. It is a different look from straight buffed out poly. As far as film thickness goes, you can do a poly finish as thin as a decent (not anal) nitro job. We all agree that there's no finish as thin as French polish. Some of the Aussie classical builders (Smallman) poly the back, sides, and neck and then put the most incredibly thin (and rough looking) FP on the face only. That's for a sophisticated buyer who is looking for maximum sound. But as I just said on another forum, we luthiers have to understand that most buyers listen first with their eyes..."mmm, shiny...mmmm, good!" OK, we can do shiny...and cover the rent. Posted By: William King Date: 11/19/2007 11:48:26 PM Rick, if its going to be gloss, do you have to do any sanding or rubbing out between the final three thin coats of polyester ? Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/19/2007 11:59:49 PM Because for those last coats, we want to start with a dead level surface...98% no pits, no pores, just dead flat. Believe me, I've done it every way I can imagine, and this is what gets me results I can ship, and gets me through seeing payroll go out the door. It also gets me results I'm proud of. My own abalone bling'd out super curl koa uke is a great example that I can show of a poly finish that obviously isn't too thick...the curl telegraphs through really beautifully, and you can feel the texture just like on a lacquered or FP'd curly koa uke. It's got a couple of dings in the side of the neck...but the finish is stuck like glue as good as an oil finish. It's getting a kind of vintage look to it that I think is beautiful; I don't mind seeing the dings of a well loved life in a uke. If I don't tell people it's polyester, they think it's nitro lacquer...but it will outlast me and any nitro job...and it hasn't checked or lifted anywhere. And I can do this finish in four days start to rubout. Without UV... Posted By: William King Date: 11/20/2007 12:04:03 AM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 12:06:01 AM) excellent ! but do you have to sand or buff between the final 3 coats ? Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/20/2007 12:10:33 AM No, it's three coats, wet on tacky; cure overnight, sand, then three more coats, wet on tacky...no more than half an hour apart. There's very little between coat sanding with this system as when you spray it, you want it to chemically be like one coat, even though it's three. We scuff sand after the rosewood sealer, but that's three minutes with maroon ScotchBrite, and then the good level sanding whether we're then shooting satin or three more coats to go gloss. Final rubout to 1,200, then 3M "Trizak", then Menzerna 38 and then Menzerna 16. Hand rub with some Novus polish and ship it. Oh, glue the bridge on first! Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/20/2007 12:15:49 AM BTW, Joe, Paul, Aaron and I have all talked finishes before, and for the production stuff, this whole poly thing really makes sense all around. It's a steep learning curve, and you've got to have a "real" spray booth, wear good protection, and be ready to buy hefty quantities of material...we buy 5 gallon pails, and it's not cheap. And speaking of not cheap; I'm also well aware of what Paul and Joe have to pay to ship this stuff to Hawaii. Believe me, they're not using these finishes because they're saving money on materials. They believe, as I do, that this is the best finish you can put on a production uke, and I believe enough in it to put it on my personal instruments. Posted By: William King Date: 11/20/2007 12:26:53 AM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 1:01:27 AM) Well, i'm just a fellow building instruments one or two at a time in my back room Rick. It seems to me that when a luthier attempts to scale what starts out as a gentle and noble pursuit of beauty to an industrial enterprise with retail distribution that (s)he ends up in a fundamentally different lifestyle producing a fundamentally different thing. And the measure of 'best' in the latter case is not the same as in the 1st. Just curious, using this methodology of yours, what percentage of man/hours per instrument are spent in finishing ? And what percentage of material costs ? Also, can you identify the different points in the process where there is sealer. filler or undercoat sanding and to what extent ? Do you level sand by hand or by machine ? I think a lot of folk do not appreciate just how much effort goes into getting one of these things smooth and shiny ! Posted By: musicguymic Date: 11/20/2007 12:27:50 AM What many fail to realize that we are talking about two different classes of Makers. The sole maker who does it full time or part time but doesn't do it to keep food on the table and can afford to make the 12 to 24 ukuleles a year with all the time to let lacquers cure. gas off etc. for weeks and months before sanding or recoating.or have the time and arm strength to frecnh polish a ukulele once every two weeks or month. A production shop that is trying to crank out 200 to 400 ukuleles a month.. pay for advertising, shop space, workmans comp, medical insurance in addition to providing their only and base income can't do that. They are looking for the best finish that can be done in a economically reasonable amount of time... not only material cost. Thats why there are custom makers and production companies. Posted By: William King Date: 11/20/2007 12:30:36 AM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 1:02:07 AM) I realize that MGM. There is a 3rd class - the sole builder who does it to put food on the table.. I'm contemplating the consequences of the transition to a production shop. 200 - 400 / month ? is that all ? I had a Chinese company contact me the other day who apologized because they could only produce 20,000 a month. Posted By: musicguymic Date: 11/20/2007 12:38:22 AM I was refering to the average Hawaii company yes China has factories with hundredfs of workers but i think we are different in out discussion here. I realize the 3rd class as you say. Much of what I feel is underpriced instruments for the amount of time and talent you guys put into these little wooden instruments. As you mentioned earlier...deciding whether to plunge into the ukuele market when 5,000 for a ukulele is practically unheard of in the custom world While guitars can command tens of thousnads and violins millions makes you want to ponder is it worth it. Posted By: William King Date: 11/20/2007 12:49:20 AM exactly. Posted By: Bill Martino Date: 11/20/2007 1:23:17 AM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 1:28:31 AM) NinaC said: "Not at all. You don't need to flail away and hit the upper bout when you play, that's just a matter of modifying technique. I've never done that and I play quite hard on occasion. None of my ukes show strumwear because I strum over the fretboard close to where it meets the body." Please someone correct me if I’m wrong about this (Clark?), but in some recordings of Cliff Edwards I’m pretty sure I can hear the sound of his fingertips/nails occasionally striking the upper bout of his ukulele at the end of a roll stroke (or fan stroke or whatever people call it). Sometimes it sounds to me like he might have been doing that deliberately so as to create a percussive effect. Whatever his intentions were, though, I seriously doubt that Cliff would’ve been too concerned about whether or not his playing technique might have caused "strumwear" on his instruments. Is it just a modern phenomenon, this being so precious about one’s ukulele(s)? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’s particularly clever to mistreat them, but it seems to me that any ukulele player who would consider modifying their technique – assuming it already serves them perfectly well as it is, musically speaking – so as to not damage the finish on their uke(s) might just have one or two kangaroos loose in their top paddock. And before you go busting a foofer valve, NinaC, I'm not necessarily referring to you here. Of course it isn’t all that difficult to play a ukulele without, as Clark said, "beating up the instrument", but since when did hitting the upper bout necessarily equate with that, or with faulty technique, for that matter? Posted By: Ko'olau Date: 11/20/2007 1:25:56 AM Here is a great idea, a philanthropic (humanitarian gesture of sharing with other) method of helping up and coming talented young musicians who cannot afford a good 'ukulele. For those of you who are making high quality 'ukuleles, and really not in it for the money, but feel if you just "give them away" it would devalue the instrument, or possibly you wife will think you are nuts, you could give them to candidates who display exemplary musical talents, somewhat like an American Idol of 'ukuleles. Then others who are struggling to make a living will not have to listen to so and so complain that so and so does it for this and that and so much cheaper, and so why are the rest of you such a rip off. This is not a joke, and certainly not a pun on anyone, but instead a great avenue of providing the poor and unfortunate but talented ones with a good instrument. If you are thinking "good, you start" ... well, the truth is, we do (including other builders in Hawaii like Kamaka and Kanilea), we provide every month several 'ukuleles to charities such as Autism research, MAD, Sakuma's free 'ukulele festivals, drug rehabilitation, and senior citizens groups, and sometimes someone who's just broke but really deserves an 'ukulele. So, this is a good option, especially for those of you who do this for a hobby, and really don't need the money, but again, don't want to cheapen the product. Run an ad: "Why do you deserve a free 'ukulele?" You will be known as good 'ole Uncle so and so, who spends his retirement doing what he loves, and provides it for others. Posted By: duane Date: 11/20/2007 1:31:29 AM You can't answer the question of how repairable UV finish is but talking nitro lacquer and how you like or dislike it. Surely some of you who use UV have had to repair this finish on some of your ukes. I am asking how you do it? Anybody? Yes, UV may be better for production purposes. It might be better for the bottom line but not because people are demanding smooth glossy finishes. That's like saying people demanded SUV's to drive. Any uke that is going to be finished smooth with no grain showing, will need to have the grain filled, etc. A smooth finish is mostly in the prep work, not the finish. Any finish. high gloss or stain, will look smooth if the proper steps come first. Guitars and violins command more money because there are more people playing them. If more people played the uke then guitars, the opposite might be true. I am a small builder like Dave Means, but I don't take orders and only build on spec. I make about 30 -35 ukes a year. I sell only on eBay. This method does not work for everybody, but it works for me. I am lucky to sell every thing I make. I usually make more money then I ask for. For me, it is not a fun "craft", it is an art form. I am glad production builders do what they do. I am just very grateful that money isn't the bottom line for me. Posted By: William King Date: 11/20/2007 1:32:52 AM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 2:10:37 AM) Bill, it is the precious fetish. Posted By: William King Date: 11/20/2007 2:00:26 AM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 2:11:54 AM) comment to Kitakis deleted as inappropriate to this forum. i'm taking a break ... Posted By: Ko'olau Date: 11/20/2007 2:49:46 AM As this thread comes to an end (for me anyway), my personal intention was to commend all builders for whatever finish they are using, and hopefully they are charging an appropriate price for what they are providing. And what IS good, is that through these discussions the public consumer is learning informative insight into "how to buy an 'ukulele" Actually, it's good that there's 'ukuleles from $59 to $15,999. All of you, builders and buyers can be proud that the instrument you love is now being added to the hall of fame, a real stringed instrument that's here to stay. Thank you Dave, William, Mike, Duane, Bill, Rick, Aaron, Joe, Nina, Craig, Weary, Grandpa, and all others who have contributed to this discussion. I often wonder if I should even contribute to such threads, sometimes stepping on toes, trying to speak forthright, but usually displaying foot and mouth disease. Sorry if I offended anyone, actually I thank all of you for your zealous and earnest interest in our little stringed instrument. The UGH and builders on the mainland have shown that we have a resurgence of an instrument that deserves to remain (this time). aloha, JK Posted By: Aaron Oya Date: 11/20/2007 3:15:52 AM I was approached this weekend and a conversation about posts such as these came up. Statement was made, "I really like when guys like you and Rick, William, et al get into deep discussions about building." For sure this is one of those threads. Although sometimes a little tiresome (due to the debate aspect), I second John in the benefit of these discussions. While I think we don't intentionally try to piss anyone else off (can I say that Paul?), our passion for our craft oftentimes forces us to hold strong to our building systems, which, by default, fortunately varies from builder to builder. This confirmed to me, again, by a member of this board, who watches and reads with great interest and makes no comment. You know what they say, "If one person says it, 20 others are thinking the same thing." To disagree is great, and the level of information shared, in my observation, has taken a sharp turn skyward. I, for one, continue to learn from the expertise of others, and hope I continue to do so, whether to alter current processes, or confirm that I'm in the right direction. MGM, finishing for me is the bottleneck. Since I build one at a time (or try to), if I have an instrument I'm going through a Nitro schedule with, that pretty much takes up my bench, and I try not to start anything else. Never happens, but I try. In theory, 8-12 a year. Reality is quite different simply because you get some guys that come over and put a halt to your own building because you're doing inlays (grin), which affords me other things, so its all good. duane, to repair a cat finish will be close to what you already know - to avoid witness lines would be similar to a car, you probably have to refinish the whole panel, and start with scuffing. Since its thin anyway, you won't have to do much, and, it'll be done in less than a week. Here's the kicker - my sons' `ukulele teacher launched his instrument off the stage 3 feet down to a tile floor. It fell (not thrown). First surprise was that nothing split, but an expectant ding resulted. The ding, was just that, a ding. Not a crack, or a chip. Just a "if you didn't tell me I wouldn't notice" ding. Kanile`a Super Tenor, UV Poly finish. Posted By: Ernie Date: 11/20/2007 3:29:50 AM Can no one answer the question regarding what type of finish Martin used in their heyday? Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/20/2007 9:28:27 AM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 10:06:24 AM) Bill Martino, if you read back, nobody ever said or even suggested it was "faulty" technique to hit the upper bout. It's not "faulty," it's just different—a different angle of attack to avoid damaging your instruments, and here is the key: *if that's important to you*. Edwards and Smeck played in a specific aggressive style in a time of gut strings and primitive amplificiation, if there was any at all. You put one of them in front of a modern mic and they'd blow the thing out. Though lots of people do it, the point is that you don't *have* to hammer directly on an instrument's body to get a great sound. A lot of people don't care about damaging finish, in fact some see it as a sign of pride, but for whom it bothers, changing the angle of attack to play over the fretboard is a reasonable suggestion. As far as it being a "modern fetish," I have a number of very old ukes with plenty of fretboard wear, showing that they were heavily played, but little body wear. I don't think caring for one's instruments (or any other important possessions) is modern or a fetish or deserves anybody's smug derision. Posted By: duane Date: 11/20/2007 9:49:36 AM I believe Martin started very early on with a shellac finish and then started using nitro lacquer until they stopped production. I don't know what they use now. It is always best to discuss the topic and keep personalities out of these forums. I enjoy these talks, it is always a chance to learn. Rarely does anyone ever agree on every point, but that is the point. I would use UV or Polyurethanes if I thought they were good finishes. I just can't stand the idea of using a plastic tough film over my ukes. It may work for some of you and that's OK. I can afford the extra time for finishing. But I can also afford the time for every other step of building and designing too. That is the great thing about being a small one man shop. I have no deadlines and far less stress then many. Lutherie is a great way to make a living if you can make it work. Thanks. Posted By: William King Date: 11/20/2007 9:53:16 AM John, I *was* having a little trouble last night imagining you interviewing the poor and down on their luck for a ukulele giveaway with the question "why do you deserve a ukulele ?" but this morning my imagination is in better shape ;-) Finishing has become a specialized art in its own right. I really appreciate the knowledge shared by the experienced production finishers here. Posted By: DougD Date: 11/20/2007 10:46:09 AM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 10:50:39 AM) Hoaryhead, acording to George Gruhn, Martin switched to nitro lacquer in the late 1920's. Before that it was shellac, sometimes with a varnish topcoat on back and sides. That info is for guitars, but ukes were probably the same. I don't know about the Hawaiian makers. The new 5K and Daisy are just described as "polished gloss" finish. Posted By: William King Date: 11/20/2007 10:53:03 AM NinaC, my comment about the precious (not modern) fetish was not intended to be smug nor derisive. Its simply a comment on our culture. Its shiny object worship, materialism unbridled, gleaming, glossy, slicked up, polished out, optioned up icons to the god almighty of must have it now, next day delivery, i'll take two, booming storage depot culture. Somewhere in there the simple and natural, down to earth, straight up, honest to goodness plain truths, unadorned virtues and good values are falling increasingly distant. /end of rant/ Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/20/2007 11:15:12 AM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 11:40:40 AM) How anyone takes care of things is a matter of personal choice. I wouldn't make the error of misconstruing practicality or thriftiness for materialism, or making sweeping personal or cultural judgments about virtues and values based on such superficial things. /end of rant/ Does anyone know what kind of finish technique Kamaka used? It seems the old Kamakas I have from the '30s and '40s look less "finished" than the Martins. Posted By: Ernie Date: 11/20/2007 11:42:22 AM Duane & Doug- Thanks for the helpful information. I think the finish on those old Martins is gorgeous, and has just the right amount of gloss for me. Thye new 5K's look waaay too glossy, by comparison. Posted By: Bill Martino Date: 11/20/2007 5:50:32 PM NinaC said: "Bill Martino, if you read back, nobody ever said or even suggested it was "faulty" technique to hit the upper bout. It's not "faulty," it's just different—a different angle of attack to avoid damaging your instruments, and here is the key: *if that's important to you*." What YOU said, NinaC, was: "You don't need to flail away and hit the upper bout when you play, that's just a matter of modifying technique." Are you seriously trying to suggest that you had nothing derogatory in mind when you chose to use the expression "flail away"? Wouldn’t "flailing away" be, in your opinion, the result of a "faulty" technique that needs to be modified, especially in order to avoid that dreaded "strumwear"? "Edwards and Smeck played in a specific aggressive style in a time of gut strings and primitive amplificiation, if there was any at all. You put one of them in front of a modern mic and they'd blow the thing out." If they happened to be competing with the sounds of an orchestra behind them and perhaps a host of drunks in front then they would have needed to have hit that uke pretty hard in order to be heard, but surely you’re not suggesting that neither of them knew how to adjust their playing style to suit different performance environments? What about when they were in the recording studio, for instance? The recordings of Cliff Edwards in which I’ve heard those rolling percussive sounds were ones involving at most his voice, a ukulele and a double-bass. Wonder of wonders, in those sparse settings he even seems to be capable of injecting a fair amount of subtlety into his playing, and if his fingers did happen to strike the instrument’s body it certainly had nothing to do with any putative "aggressive style". "Though lots of people do it, the point is that you don't *have* to hammer directly on an instrument's body to get a great sound." Duh! NinaC, if you read back, nobody ever said or even suggested that it might be necessary to do that. "A lot of people don't care about damaging finish, in fact some see it as a sign of pride, but for whom it bothers, changing the angle of attack to play over the fretboard is a reasonable suggestion." Taking pride in a damaged finish is just plain dumb, no doubt about that, but as for this "angle of attack" jargon you're so fond of, in this context don’t you just mean "hand position"? Like, you can either move your strumming/picking hand closer to the soundhole, or further away from it, in order to change the part of the uke over which your fingers flail away, can’t you? "As far as it being a "modern fetish," I have a number of very old ukes with plenty of fretboard wear, showing that they were heavily played, but little body wear. I don't think caring for one's instruments (or any other important possessions) is modern or a fetish or deserves anybody's smug derision." "smug derision"? What, a bit like your "Those players need to learn to strum over the fretboard and not over the body."? Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/20/2007 6:00:54 PM Whatever, Bill. You're blowing this way up out of proportion and it looks to me like you're spoiling for a fight. I'm not rising to the bait, sorry. You misconstrued my original post and read more into it than was there. Posted By: Bill Martino Date: 11/20/2007 6:08:29 PM Whatever, Nancy. Looks to me like you have no answers. Posted By: grouch Date: 11/20/2007 6:14:10 PM William, that 'rant' said it all..Bravo! Posted By: rar jungle Date: 11/20/2007 6:41:28 PM Where is my ukulele? Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/20/2007 6:54:42 PM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 7:11:18 PM) I have plenty of answers, I just don't want to fight with you. Though I've really said all I need to on the subject and that boils down to this: if you want to keep from marring the upper bout while playing, there are reasonable things you can do, but if and only if it's important to you. That's it. If it's not important to you, then don't worry about it. This thread was about durability of various finishes, and my constructive suggestions were relevant in the context of what was being discussed. Posted By: Strum Bum Date: 11/20/2007 7:38:40 PM I recently spent some time closely inspecting Kanilea ukes for the first time - at a dealer in Hawaii. In regard to finish, they appear to have been dipped in a barrel of liquid plastic. I can't imagine that the wood is breathing through all that, but I'll bet they sure last a long time. I sealed my daughter's baby shoes in plexiglass, and they look brand new after nearly 30 years. Posted By: Bill Martino Date: 11/20/2007 8:16:38 PM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 8:17:34 PM) NinaC, if that post of yours to which I initially took offense ("Those players need to learn to strum over the fretboard and not over the body.") had been more along the lines of your most recent post then it might have been more obvious that your intention was to make a "constructive suggestion", but as it stands it's just prescriptivist bullshit, ESPECIALLY if those players who MGM was talking about - the "nailed hard" ones - happen to not care less about whether or not their playing style leads to damaging the finish on their uke(s). Posted By: northern uke Date: 11/20/2007 8:24:19 PM Does that mean Willie Nelson has been flailing on that poor old guitar of his? Posted By: Dave Means Date: 11/20/2007 9:27:16 PM No, but he has been using a pick for 50 years on a guitar that was never intended to be played with a pick! -- Dave Posted By: Clark Turner Date: 11/20/2007 9:42:26 PM If any pros are still here, I'd like to get back to the original thread and ask a simple question that I may have missed: can someone explain just what the process of "french polishing" entails? I know little about finishing except what I've read here, and that's been most instructive and interesting. But I seem to have missed "Finishing 101". (If it's already upthread, please point me to it). Thanks. Clark Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/20/2007 10:01:29 PM   (Updated: 11/20/2007 10:16:45 PM) "No, but he has been using a pick for 50 years on a guitar that was never intended to be played with a pick! -- Dave: Or, to my point, yes, but he doesn't care, it's not important to him. And there's nothing wrong with that. My advice was directed toward those who do care, offering an alternative. I think more than a few people are reading negative connotations into "flailing" which to me is just aggressive playing that can result in body damage. In all the beginner materials I've looked at over the years, I see the instructors encouraging people to play over the fretboard at about the twelfth fret and/or where the fretboard meets the body. I have yet to see anyone say that the best sound is achieved by deliberately strumming to hit the upper bout. Posted By: ron6827 Date: 11/20/2007 10:05:02 PM French Polishing is a method for applying spirit varnish by hand--it is the traditional finish of master Spanish guitarmakers. The basic techique uses only shellac, alcohol, pumice, oil and a special rubbing pad. It is simple in theory but often tricky in practice. http://www.fernandezmusic.com/FrenchPolishingDVD.html Posted By: William King Date: 11/20/2007 10:09:15 PM Clark, here is an oft-linked-to tutorial on french polishing http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html Posted By: Neal Date: 11/20/2007 10:30:37 PM Huh? BTW, I miss that guy... Posted By: Boost Date: 11/21/2007 1:53:44 AM "Its shiny object worship, materialism unbridled, gleaming, glossy, slicked up, polished out, optioned up icons to the god almighty of must have it now, next day delivery, i'll take two, booming storage depot culture. Somewhere in there the simple and natural, down to earth, straight up, honest to goodness plain truths, unadorned virtues and good values are falling increasingly distant." William, your rant sounds like lyrics from a Rush song. I love their music. brilliant! not serious, just to make light of it. :-) I just want that semi-durable Lacquer finish that minimizes minor strum marks on the lower bout (not upper bout). I happen to strum over the f/b, but the lower bout gets in the way of a stray fingernail or two.. ouch. Posted By: Clark Turner Date: 11/21/2007 8:23:09 AM Thanks for the links, ron and william. Now I have something to do this weekend -- strip the finish from one of my ukes and French polish it :-) Posted By: William King Date: 11/21/2007 9:22:28 AM   (Updated: 11/21/2007 9:28:27 AM) hi Boost, McFadden's nitro lacquer is pretty resistant to nail marks.. Clark, good luck. Its a skill that requires a lot of practice to do well but worth working at. Mix your shellac solution up to the right strength, don't let your pad get too wet or too dry and always keep it moving when in contact with the surface. Posted By: wearymicrobe Date: 11/21/2007 5:34:52 PM Well this turned into more then I could have ever hoped for, lot of cool information for me to digest. I guess I should have put in the original post that I have very hard nails and I shape them to play classical guitar as well as ukulele. I actually can break uke strings just from the compounded nicks that happen in the nyguts. I guess I should also add that I really would like to build a ukulele and this gives me a good starting point on finish work and +/-'s of each, if I build it will definitely no be a traditional instrument, I have access to my CNC lathe/mill, laser plotter cutters and a variety of other interesting tools and chemicals that come with my profession. I also have pretty much all the needed power tools except a bender and router attachment for my dremel. I am waiting at my door right now the USPS guy is coming today with the Ogata, and I sold one of my older violins which will so I will be able to pick up some wood to try in the laser cutter. Posted By: Clark Turner Date: 11/21/2007 5:52:48 PM Thanks for the advice, William. I have an old Harmony solid mahogany that I'd thought of experimenting with. That way if I mess it up, it won't be a tragic loss. However, from what I've learned here, it seems that French Polish mistakes can be corrected (with lots of time), so perhaps I shouldn't be so cautious. I have a Martin Style 0 that has some crazing on the top -- would I be foolish to start with it? WearyMicrobe -- thanks for starting this thread. As you can see, it's been most interesting. When I switched from banjo and steel-string guitar back to uke, I found that I needed to alter my playing style to avoid broken strings and strum marks. Looking at how I play the uke, I can see (1) I play right over the point where the neck and body join, (2) I strum straight across the strings parallel to the top of the uke, so I rarely touch the body. By following this discipline over time, I can strum very hard yet not leave marks on the body. But it takes practice, pratice, practice (doesn't everything worthwhile require the same?) I really hadn't analyzed this until you raised the question and had many responders. Thanks for the incentive. Happy Thanksgiving! Posted By: William King Date: 11/21/2007 7:39:09 PM Clark, I wouldn't start on your Martin :-) Find yourself a scrap bit of mahogany or ash or walnut or another wood with open pores to practice on first. There are some basic skills you'll need to pick up before you try french polishing a ukulele. Posted By: Bill Martino Date: 11/21/2007 7:45:15 PM NinaC said: "My advice was directed toward those who do care, offering an alternative. Ho hum, more spin. It might well have been - in your head - but that's not what you said. NinaC said: "In all the beginner materials I've looked at over the years I see the instructors encouraging people to play over the fretboard at about the twelfth fret and/or where the fretboard meets the body." Really? Here's what some of my how-to-play-the-ukulele books have to say: Cole's 5-Minute Method (1925): "Hold ukulele flat against body with right forearm so that right hand can strum across strings just above the sound hole." Kamiki (1915): Doesn't say anything at all about over which part of the uke one should strum. Smeck (1978): Ditto. Beloff (Whenever): "With your right hand, strum the strings just above the sound hole." The first three are pretty well-known methods. Don't know about the Beloff, at least outside of this site. Which beginner materials have you looked at "over the years"? And what's this "over the years" business anyway, Nancy, given that back in April 2006 you were still calling yourself a newbie? Are you trying to give the impression that you're a more experienced ukulele player than you actually are, in order to add more weight to your opinions? "I have yet to see anyone say that the best sound is achieved by deliberately strumming to hit the upper bout." I have yet to see anyone say that in this thread, so why do you even bother to mention it? It's the old "straw man" argument technique, isn't it? Posted By: musicguymic Date: 11/21/2007 7:55:29 PM my purely unscientific study shows that most strum between the 12th or 14th fret to the 17th fret if there is one. that is bases on wear marks on older ukuleles. I rarely have seen strum marks that match the soundhole and of course theres always the fact that if you are strumming below the 12th up o n the neck you wouldn't leave any but on most older vintage ukes the wear is at the upper shoulders of the upper bout... Posted By: Neal Date: 11/21/2007 8:00:07 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 12:00:04 AM) Ahh, it worked.. you luthiers are great. I just want you to know that. I don't think we get all you say, but it sure as heck is a classroom here at times. Posted By: Clark Turner Date: 11/21/2007 8:46:38 PM I'm usually reluctant to keep posting when things get sour. But consider that this thread is nearing 100 posts -- most of them very informative and useful to us players. Professionals -- builders and players -- have offered invaluable advice here. I hope they won't be discouraged by a a few arguments. A few posts here have been somewhat combative, but I'd encourage the majority to keep up the useful discussion. Perhaps we can ignore the trolls and keep on topic. Posted By: Neal Date: 11/21/2007 9:03:36 PM Ditto dat, bro. Posted By: duane Date: 11/21/2007 11:09:28 PM Clark, after going over all the posts again, I think it is fair to say that those luthiers that are production builders, have to take into account time, materials, models offered, labor and number of instruments sold. The smaller shops with less overhead just need to cover the bills and make enough profit to continue doing what we do. It believe it is far easier to experiment with different woods, sizes and such with one uke then to think about building in batches, time involved, etc. This is where the one man shop can benefit more, especially when it comes to finishes, which takes time. If you can give the customer a choice of finishes, some will involve more money. I believe it is also important to be able to maintain the instrument, after the sale. Is the finish covered in the warranty and for how long? How is it to be maintained? Most finishes are not covered due to the very nature most damage. The builder usually assumes no responsibility for damage due to age, physical damage or weather conditions. As a builder, I most certainly want to be able to fix something that gets damaged with minimal effort, even if it isn't covered under the warranty. Lacquer, oils and shellac I believe fall into this category. If I have to remove the finish to fix it, that is not my idea of minimal effort. That is one reason I do not like UV or urethane finishes. For a production shop, this may be no big deal. So, as buyers, you get to decide what finish you want. Does it have to be super glossy as some have suggested? Does it matter at all? What do you want? Posted By: Boost Date: 11/21/2007 11:17:03 PM I mean by lower bout.. thats while holding the uke in a playing position. So technically what I meant is the upper bout, upper right hand quadrant.. or below the f/b :-) Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/21/2007 11:51:26 PM Nitro lacquer IS plastic. It's just like celluloid...plastic...but very unstable. I've done a ton of research on this stuff, and it's the opinion of all the finish formulation chemists that nitro lacquer is only good for about 75 years, and then it's seriously down hill with checking, flaking and general deterioration as the plasticizers (often castor oil) keeps evaporating. Poly finishes CAN be done to look very nice, very thin, and very much like nitro. Just because you've seen some surfboard finishes on instruments does not mean that they have to look that way. Please do not automatically reject a finish that several very good makers use just because you've seen it used badly. Hey, I've seen some ugly koa ukes in my day, and that doesn't mean I reject koa... French polish is just not a commercial finish unless you're selling through some high end classical guitar salon where there's a sophisticated client base who understand FP. One classical guitar builder I know (Monica Esparza) is experimenting with a hybrid of using epoxy pore filler under FP, a technique that makes a lot of sense. That still must go to someone who understands the delicacy of the finish. And there's a middle ground between two to four ukes a month in a one person shop and two hundred. We make 8 to 10 Compass Rose ukes a month. It will be more when we get our CNC machine carving necks and slotting fingerboards, but that means we'll make maybe 12 to 14. For us, this means we can concentrate on the woods and detailing that make our ukes special, and not spend time doing what is essentially grunt work that doesn't really add player/owner value. Our CNC'd necks will feel exactly like our pin router/hand carved ones, and the fingerboards will be fine...but less labor will go into them. As for finish time...I think we put about 20% to 25% of the build time into the finish. Nitro would raise that by about 5% to 7%, and I don't think the finish would be as good. Ding repair? Generally a drop of thin superglue, then thick superglue; let cure without accelerator, sand to 1000, and buff. It's not any more nor less visible than a nitro repair after three months. Once again, this whole "nitro is repairable" argument is just bull...t. Nine times out of ten, once a nitro repair has settled in, you can see it. Very, very few finishers know how to blend in a nitro repair so it doesn't telegraph through as it outgasses faster than the lacquer around it. I've been shooting catalyst cured polyester for well over ten years now, and for one thing, the finish is so tough, they just don't get the dings and scratches that lacquer gets. They look much better than equivalent-aged nitro instruments. Also, shooting poly is not out of the realm of a one person shop. Guitar makers Mike Baranik and Mario Proulx both have one man shops; they both shoot polyester. If you really must have the surface look of nitro, then shoot two or three thin coats over a polyester base. You'll have the look you like and the toughness of the poly, though the top coats won't be a scratch resistant. In the end, nobody comments on my finishes other than to say how good they look. Most people just naturally assume that it's lacquer because I know how to do poly finishes at nitro film thickness. None of us who shoot poly hear any difference between it and nitro. I think we'd all agree that yes, a super thin French polish finish would be best tonally, but it's just not practical unless you're selling a few ukes direct to your customers. And I would like to suggest that you one-person shop luthiers and the fans thereof not hold us more production-oriented makers in such contempt. There is this pervasive undercurrent of a kind of accusation that a) we've sold out, and the corollary b) we intentionally produce inferior instruments strictly for money. I know Paul and Joe personally; I know their passion for making excellent instruments; I know how they are in it for the music. I don't think there are a lot of industries where the "competitors" are so committed to liking and learning from one another. We open our shops to one another, share tips and suppliers, and wish the best for all builders of decent to great ukes. We want more uke players, not fewer uke builders! Posted By: Neal Date: 11/22/2007 12:07:11 AM I just bought a Guild GAD 30R with a poly finish, I believe. The sound is excellent, and the finish is indestructible, to a certain extent..I took out the strap pin, located on the side, not the neck, and went to remove the ring caused by the vinyl bushing, I tried turpentine, goof-off..nothing touched the finish, and the ring remains..oh well. Certainly plastic, not a traditional finish, but it sounds and looks great. Posted By: yodelinglee Date: 11/22/2007 1:25:06 AM As I said to Aaron last saturday night at dinner, I really enjoy the threads where the fine luthiers on this BB get into a good discussion. Other than the two combatants, this has been a great learning experience for me. The Kanile'a supertenor with the beautiful claro walnut really comes alive with the UV high gloss finish. Joe and I both agreed on this treatment for this wood. Then the Ogata that I got from Mr.Bulk has a satin finish, beautful also for the fine koa that it is made of. Thank you, luthiers all Posted By: chuba Date: 11/22/2007 1:34:22 AM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 2:49:17 AM) My thanks to Rick Turner for his realistic comments on this subject. I am a member of the Kanile'a staff, and I will in all honesty admit that when first introduced to this new UV technology I was impressed but DID have some doubts - much like the doubts I had about digital recording when it first appeared - or the doubts my grandfather had about television. Well x-amount of years down the road we all know how that turned out. When done properly - and it does take time, patience and talent to learn how - UV is as beautiful and sounds as good as any commercial instrument finish available now or back in the "good old days". The green aspect of this stuff can not be overlooked either - it IS SAFER to work with than nitro - ask any of the guys I grew up with in the 60's and 70's who dedicated themselves to faithfully recreating those "vintage" Fender, Gibson (talk about thick) or Martin finishes and have now been ordered by their doctors to stay away from nitro - absorption through the lungs AND skin being the culprit, their HEALTH being the victim. And the smokestack argument is, well, immature at best (I'm being kind). Should we not look towards electric cars as an alternative to gasoline-powered cars because the electricity is created by smokestack technology? Isn't doing SOMETHING better than doing NOTHING? There's a REASON California banned nitro for commercial applications! I'm proud to be part of a company that, along with Taylor Guitars and other forward-thinking companies, is committed to doing WHATEVER WE CAN to produce the best-possible instruments in the most responsible way. The times we live in demand nothing less - and it's kinda fun at the same time. The TRUTH is: it takes a REAL commitment in money, mind and spirit to get into the UV thing. For the sake of all, I wish that wasn't the case - but it's not a viable investment, at this point anyway, for low-volume manufacturers. That will change in time. For now, I'm glad that Joe and Kristen Souza stepped up to the plate - and with that I'll sit back and relax while I watch my HDTV with DIGITAL sound. Mahalo nui loa if you've made it this far - Aloha and Happy Thanksgiving. Bill Griffin Luthier - Kanile'a 'Ukulele Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/22/2007 10:35:23 AM I thought this was an interesting overview of techniques and methods, particularly for those of us who are players and not builders and who might want to know what's involved: http://lmii.com/CartTwo/FinishOverview.htm A question about French polishing: about how many man-hours would you estimate go into a typical French polishing job by an experienced person on say, a tenor ukulele, meaning actual human hands-on time vs. curing time? Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 10:46:48 AM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 11:19:07 AM) i'm overwhelmed, those UV cured plastic finishes sound like they are so mindful and spiritual and green and involve so much self sacrifice in terms of time and money and committment and responsibility. i think i'll go put some good vinyl on the turntable and turn the tube amp down low and meditate on those UV cured plastic finishes and just how good life could be if i could just get my hands on some of that :-) Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 10:52:56 AM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 11:18:28 AM) NinaC, it really depends on the style of french polishing and how experienced the polisher is. There are french polishes and then there are french polishes. I've seen builders take months to build up really exhibition class finishes on classical guitars, and i've seen builders finish one in a day or two. Some polishers prefer a thicker finish and some prefer a thinner, esp. on the soundboard. From what i've seen, Dave's FP finishes are probably pretty typical of the former. Didn't he write 2-3 weeks earlier in this thread ? Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/22/2007 11:52:47 AM Thanks, William. Dave did say he spent a couple weeks on each but I was curious if that included curing time. The finish on my Glyph is gorgeous, I'm sure you're right that he gives this step a lot of extra attention. It's interesting to know that something far more basic might be possible in a couple of days. Would it be reasonable to assume minimum direct hands-on time would be, say, 16 hours, and the maximum is anywhere more than that, at the builder's discretion? Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 12:02:41 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 12:26:45 PM) NinaC, if you are trying to characterize the minimum amount of time in which an acceptable shellac finish can be applied, i'm guessing the early Martins were sprayed, which would be quicker than french polishing. But to answer your question directly, a professional working french polisher might actually spend less than 16 hours of actual hands on time doing a basic finish on a ukulele. It really very much depends on the skill and experience of the polisher and the quality of the wood surface preparation. Posted By: DougD Date: 11/22/2007 12:15:28 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 12:23:09 PM) It might be worth mentioning that French polishing is only one way to apply shellac to a wood surface You can brush or spray it, or wipe it on with a rag - French polish is really only the most elegant refinement of that idea. After its applied you can level and "polish" the finish much as you would with lacquer. Its also interesting that Martin apparently adopted nitro lacquer shortly after it became available - it must have seemed like a good idea at the time. Wonder if they had a bunch of ukulele players arguing with them about it? Rick is probably right that nitro finishes deteriorate over time. They've only been around for 80 or so years, but if you want to see what can happen to old celluloid (which usually contains camphor) look here: http://www.mjt.org/exhibits/rickyjay/rjay2.html Hit "Turn Back" on that page to read more about celluloid. Or for that matter, look at what happens to old Kluson tuning machine buttons. Posted By: duane Date: 11/22/2007 12:56:31 PM Yes, nitro will age as it should. The wood also ages and is constantly moving or breathing. It is not static piece of furniture. I doubt that an instrument that has a urethane or poly finish will move much over 50 years. The wood will. It will be interesting to see what the new instruments will look like in 30-50 years that have the new finishes. I suppose if there are thin enough they might be OK, but I really don't know. Personally, I love the look of a old Martin or Gibson that has discolored, has finish checks and a well worn look, or a violin for that matter. I doubt the new finishes will achieve that kind of beauty, but again, time will tell. Its Thanksgiving day, and I think I'll join William and put on some old vinyl, have some old wine, and contemplate how good I have it. Posted By: ChefJeff Date: 11/22/2007 12:57:50 PM Hey, wait a minute! Are you guys telling me that the incredibly smooth and beautiful nitro lacquer finish Kevin Crossett lovingly applied to Little Mac, my Kepasa custom concert, is going to self-destruct suddenly sometime around 2087? He never told me that! Obviously, I have a bone to pick with Kevin so I'm gonna call him right now. Speaking of picking bones (like that segue?), I wish everyone a safe, happy and healthy Thanksgiving holiday. Posted By: Dave Means Date: 11/22/2007 1:01:00 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 1:06:24 PM) Nancy, you are pretty close in my case. I probably spend about 16-20 hours of actual padding time on a tenor over a few weeks, and maybe a few hours more level-sanding a few times during the process. I'm really striving for the clearest possible finish, so I currently use no pore fillers other than the shellac itself. This means more time, as the only thing filling the pores is pure shellac, and shellac shrinks back tremendously as it cures. This means more applications, more cutting back with sandpaper, and longer waits between application sessions as the film thickness builds. While it is theoretically true that you can do a French polish finish in a day over a pore filler, a top-notch job will be spread out over a much longer period of time to allow some curing between sessions. A really exhibition-quality French polish may well take many months. Rick, I'm certainly not taking any shots at you production and semi-production guys. I fully respect what you have to do, especially when selling through dealers. I do what I do because it works best for me. I deal directly with clients who, for the most part, understand the care responsibilities of a FP finish, and I continue to have an enduring relationship with them after the sale. Sprayed finishes are pretty much out of the question for me (even if I wanted to do them... and I don't) because I work out of a basement shop with my invalid wife just upstairs all the time. Even with a good spray booth, that would be more exposure to toxins than I'd be willing to risk. The way I look at it, these are all "plastics", whether the resins are secreted by some bug or by some chemical plant in Houston. There are advantages and disadvantages to all of them. The trick is finding the best match to your customer set. -- Dave Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 1:03:22 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 1:21:30 PM) DougD, as i'm sure you know, celluloid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid was replace by cellulose acetate many moons ago. Cellulose acetate doesn't degrade like celluloid. The primary degradation mode of cellulose acetate appears to be UV light exposure http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/104037376/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 . But on the subject of durability, people will probably be digging polyester and polyurethane up in landfills by the megatons many generations from now. Dave, i think its useful to acknowledge that something secreted by a bug (lac), something produced from cellulose (vegetable matter) and something produced from petrochemicals are very different things in many ways. I agree with your statements about the different applications of all these finishes and the different needs of a production factory environment and a hand builder. But that GREEN rant just got me going ! I simply can not resist when the poly UV marketing department starts the GREEN rant. And i think its good that the players and collectors get a chance to understand a little bit about the finishing issues. Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/22/2007 1:12:42 PM Ahhh, so holy, so pure, so self-satisfied... Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 1:24:14 PM Rick, quite wrong. I am my greatest critic. But save the GREEN rant, please :-) Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/22/2007 2:04:06 PM I'm not ranting green at all. I'm merely telling the truth as I know it, and I don't think that polyester is any "browner" than lacquer in the overall picture, and I know (because I get inspected once a year by an agent of the Monterey Bay Air Quality Board) that as far as the authorities are concerned, spraying polyester in my booth puts a whole lot less crap into the air here than nitro or acrylic lacquer does. A couple of corrections to what others have said here. You can spray nitro lacquer here in California; it's just that there are limits to how much. For instance, Santa Cruz Guitars sprays about sixty guitars a month in nitro, and my pal Addam Stark shoots nitro in my booth for his luthier clients. Also, celluloid, as in nitro cellulose plastic, is quite available. The "tortoise" and "ivoroid" bindings that many of use use are nitro based celluloid, not acrylic. There are a very few of us here who have done virtually every finish possible on instruments. I have done oil finishes; I'm pretty good at French polish; I've shot nitro lacquer, catalyzed polyurethanes of several varieties, and three different polyester products. I am extremely aware of all the plusses and minuses for all these different finishes because I have hands-on experience; I've done my environmental and health concerns homework with each and every finish that's been mentioned here. At this point, I've personally sprayed or otherwise finished close to 3,000 instruments. I've chosen polyester as the core of my finish schedules for most instruments I build. It's tough, it can be done very thin, it doesn't hurt the sound of an instrument if done right, and it isn't as bad for my workers or me as any other production finish. And if you're French polishing, you'd better be thinning with Everclear or equivalent, or you're poisoning yourself every time you touch that muneca. Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 2:20:25 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 2:24:34 PM) Rick, i know you're a very experienced production finisher with as much concern for the environment as the next fella and i really appreciate the benefit of the information sharing you do here. And sorry about linking you to the green rant, that was really for Joe and Bill. But you know that these poly finishes are going to survive by many centuries the wood upon which they're sprayed don't you ? Anyway, i'm off for now. Happy thanksgiving and spare a thought for the turkey. Posted By: duane Date: 11/22/2007 2:29:42 PM For my purposes, I'm not interested in tough for finishes. All quality musical instruments need to be treated with respect, especially when they get older. I can understand production builders wanting a tough finish due to volume and warranty concerns. I've chosen to use nitrocellulose lacquer or shellac finishes because they can also be done thin, have a great track record for sound and look beautiful as they age. Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/22/2007 3:30:03 PM Finish companies now do accelerated aging tests, and from what I understand, polyester is going to hold up far better than nitro lacquer over a very long time. "All quality musical instruments need to be treated with respect." Yeah, and how do you enforce that commandment? You can't. I'm going to make a very broad statement here...You small shop uke builders who deal directly with your customers have no idea what we who sell through dealers have to go through. You've got no clue whatsoever. You get all high and mighty, and claim the moral high ground, and sniff down your noses at the likes of Joe and Paul and myself, and yet, if anything, it is the likes of us who are building your market for you. We're the ones who are making excellent production and semi-custom instruments and making the uke playing public aware that there are better instruments than the bulk of the Chinese imports flooding the market. We are the necessary stepping stone, if you will, to custom built, one man shop instruments. It does not serve you well to be having to put down those of us who may be "production builders" yet still put every piece of wood together by hand in order to make your own instruments appear better. We have extremely valid reasons for our finish choices. If you choose differently that we do, that is fine, but it does not automatically make your instruments better...they're just different. I believe that as long as the finish is thin, it doesn't much matter what it is. French polish is beautiful, and it's the dead wrong finish for most people I know. Once you get to nitro, I don't see any difference in tone or enviro concerns between that and a well done poly finish...and the poly will hold up much better over the long haul. And then there are the customers...We've built a couple of hundred ukes now, and not one single customer has called to complain about the finish on his or her uke. It's just the opposite, especially with our higher end models with sunbursts, shaded finishes, etc. We hear, "Oh, I love the finish on this uke..." time and time again. We're not building ukes to compete with small shop builders on stupid talking points; we're building ukes for people who love musical instruments and want good value. Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 3:42:00 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 4:01:15 PM) ok, i'm back :-) nobody is putting you down Rick so pleeze get down off the table ! the way this whole thing got started was Joe and Bill yacking up poly finishes with implied but clear criticism of anybody who used anything else. and which 'stupid talking points' are you talking about ? To address your main point about the market, the way i see it the Island and mainland factory builders are being forced by competitive pressures from cheap labor economies to adopt one after another cost cutting compromises and finishes that are quick but take millenia to bio-degrade are one symptom. Do the production companies help create a market for fine quality hand made instruments ? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. You'd have to convince me on that one, but i don't think its relevant to the discussion. The more i work at this, the more i realize that lutherie is best done as a hobby or avocation, rather than a business. Otherwise it eventually becomes just manufacturing. Posted By: DougD Date: 11/22/2007 3:46:26 PM William, I know cellulose nitrate is no longer used for dice or photographic film, but its still whats in McFaddens lacquer I think. I know there are CAB lacquers, but I don't think they're used on instruments. I just thought Ricky Jay's dice are interesting. I'd join you in putting on some vinyl and enjoying some vintage clicks and pops, but I got to thinking thats way too plastic for me (have you ever seen how records were pressed?) and those inefficient tubes are wasting far too much energy from coal fired plants. Plus its generally known that all good music was recorded on wax and released on shellac discs, so I think I'll just crank up the victrola (shellac finish with varnish topcoat, I believe) and listen to Uncle Dave. If I drop a record, maybe I can "touch it up" - I have to mix up some fresh shellac anyway. Or maybe I'll just have to pick up an instrument and play some. Hope I don't grab that Taylor 810 by mistake! ;) This has been a very interesting thread. The link NinaC posted is informative in that the type of finish a builder chooses probably has a lot more to do with their shop capabilities, tastes and customer perceptions than the actual qualities of the material. Most books on finishing I've seen would say the same thing. A Happy Thanksgiving to all. Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 3:57:00 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 9:24:30 PM) The McFadden's nitrocellulose lacquers are alkyd resin based. Curiously, wikipedia says that alkyd resins are a class of (gasp) polyester resins. That complicates the discussion ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkyd Posted By: Dave Means Date: 11/22/2007 4:13:59 PM That's a pretty reasonable generalization, Nancy. As in most things, there is a point of diminishing returns. You can get OK in 3-4 hours of hands-on work, very nice in 10, great in 16, and drop-dead incredible in 100 hours spread out over 6 months. Of course, the last is only commercially feasible in a $10K+ instrument. On this day for giving thanks, I think we all need to reflect on the wonderful diversity of materials, methods, and yes... even opinions... we have available to us these days, stop lobbing grenades, and proceed to the groaning board to overeat. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody! -- Dave Posted By: ChefJeff Date: 11/22/2007 4:25:38 PM Jeez, is there something about tung oil and wax that makes you cranky? I'm gonna go mix me another SoCo Manhattan and play a little. Have a nice holiday, everyone. And when you have a minute, please pray for something important such as peace so our people can come home to their families. Posted By: Ko'olau Date: 11/22/2007 5:03:58 PM The Fight to Finish. It's always been the hard part. Hopefully Rick's valid points will be understood, not so much by small time builders, who through experience, or lack of it, cannot fully understand the whole picture, but maybe understood and appreciated more by you players and buyers, who for the most part have in your hands an 'ukulele finished with a synthetic coating of some type. Over a period of 30 years, and also 3000 instruments, I too have experimented and for several years at a time, tried every, I think it's safe to say, every imaginable coating ever available. And for various reasons, some "noble" and some to simply be more efficient at paying the bills. Having four children (and now eight grandchildren) and two of them in the business since the time they only swept floors and sorted screws, I naturally had (and still have) concerns for their health, so after a few years of tung oils, poly "you name it", and cheap nitro lacquers, decided that water based finishes were the answer, and so came a few years of "natural" production (but there's probably a bunch of junk in those too), then as my son's grew older and smarter, they told me (up to this point they were not allowed to "tell" me how to do it, ... now I ask them for advise) that current water based products are not as beautifully clear, nor thin enough for our instruments. So, back to nitro, but the best quality available. A few years ago I went back to water base again, supposedly better quality, I liked it but now, not only my son's, but other employees disagreed. At about the same time I thought I would go back to French Polishing, which looked good and sounded great, but not durable enough for most customers. I also learned that my ingredients, which included high quality shellacs were not adequate, that other resins were necessary for strength and durability. My current finishing supervisor, Kilin Reece, although very proficient at production poly's and nitro finishes, has taken varnish coatings to the highest level of passion and professionalism, with visits to France and ongoing consultation with some of the greatest varnish masters in the world (I'm not exaggerating). (and he uses Everclear, even tried drinking some but spit it out). And although we offer a varnish finish, again this is only practical for a very small percentage of our customers, less than 5%. This is due to the expense, but also the true disclaimer to our customers that this finish will NOT be as durable as a poly or nitro finish. Rick's point about most guitar or 'ukulele players today playing an instrument with a poly or nitro finish, and that we, production makers are the stepping stone is important. If the stringed instrument market is going to become "full" of 'ukuleles, as we, either builders or fan-atics (I mean that in a nice way) wish for, it's not going to be because of a few guys puttering in the basement. It's good that you get to do that, in fact I tell my wife that I miss those days, just walk downstairs or out to the shop with my coffee, pull a few weeds in the garden on the way, work a few hours, then back to the garden, sell a few instruments, do a few repairs, stay broke. Now I make more money, but I spend more, so not really "making" any more. But now, with all the family and employees involved, and the big wheel moving it's hard to turn back. But before you "basement" boys start thinking "yea, see we do have it better, and we ARE protecting the environment and not killing ourselves and others around us" ... you're being hypocritical. This entire thread started, and should continue and conclude with the discussion about finishes as related to sound quality, not ethical moral issues. Yes, we could blend in the ethics, but if that's the issue, and you want to preach about the quality of life then go all the way. You are, at this moment, looking at your computer screen, ready to type a response on your keypad, to your right or left is your printer, there is phone and fax probably on the desk too, and for the next hour I could list all of the things that you use, and probably could not, or would not, do without that are made of plastics and even metals, made from pollutants. Your cars, tvs, stereos, and even the "basement" boys have tools that were created with some element of abuse to man and the environment. But the practicality of this issue is that we live in an era of time, in the stream of time, where everyone is not going to voluntarily throw away the tv, computer, car, even bicycle (it was made in an environmentally polluting factory, in China). So, anyone who wants to bash current production methods should either #1 start doing it and show us all the "correct" way (but you're not going to do #1, so #2 get rid of all of the above mentioned conveniences, all of them, get a horse, research all of the tools used hundreds of years ago and learn to use them. And at that point, you will not have your computer any longer, and will not be able to write in and annoy anyone any longer. p.s. as a side note to consumers, just because some build in a little basement or yard shop, by "hand" (with electricity), and only make 20 or so a year does not necessarily mean that the product is better. Sounds romantic, but not necessarily better. As a repair facility also, nearly every makers 'ukulele comes into our shop at some point, yes, even some who have written in on this thread. I used to say "sadly", some Asian 'ukuleles look and sound better, feeling dismayed that we have to outsource now to get something better. Now I say, good for them, foreign manufacturers, some of whom have hundreds of years of wood working heritage, and are now being taught professional methods of lutherie. Some "American" made instrument makers should be ashamed, just because it's made in America, or made in Hawaii seems to give some license that they are "authentic" and better. Some of these products look and sound inferior to Asian 'ukuleles, and yet most buyers continue to "pledge their allegiance" to something they think is better. Some look like they are from Jr.High (not ever High) school wood shop. So, all builders, either self professed to be white, green, brown, or black, sharpen your chisels, humbly continue to learn, and strive to produce the best possible 'ukulele you can. Posted By: Clark Turner Date: 11/22/2007 6:31:27 PM Post #125 John, you certainly wrapped up many of the issues that have been presented in this thread. Clearly, there seems to be an important set of concerns that go beyond the technical question of finishing ukuleles. But exmination of these concerns leads to very complex questions for which we have no ready answers. I'm heartened by the arguments of those who see "outside the box", because that's what must be done if we're to survive as a civilization. Challenges to "conventional wisdom" are essential. However, there's a simpler life going on at the same time. Not everything we do rises to the level of global significance . In fact, very few of our daily activities have any measurable effect on the future environment. Collectively, perhaps yes, but individually, probably no. I don't believe that the finishers of ukuleles will have any statistically significant effect on our environment, whatever methods, material, or techniques they may choose to employ ("choose" is the operative word here). But they may have an effect on our humanity and our culture which, in the end, may be what saves us from destruction. Jes' thinkin' Clark Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 6:33:33 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 6:45:05 PM) just when i was telling myself that the discussion should come to a quiet end for the sake of the Chef Jeffs of the world ! John said 'This entire thread started, and should continue and conclude with the discussion about finishes as related to sound quality, not ethical moral issues'. How did you know ethics was my favorite subject ? John, why discourage people from ethical considerations in their actions just because they are not perfect and you can find some contradictions in their lives ? Never mind, that's a new thread :-) Posted By: Clark Turner Date: 11/22/2007 7:01:28 PM William - At the risk of continuing a diaogue that argubly has reached the point of diminshing returns -- The first questions I pose to my staff when we have a difficult problem to deal with are; "What is the purpose of this exercise? What is the question that's being asked? What is it that we're trying to accomplish? Be specific". I find that defining the problem is usually 80% toward finding the solution. The other 20% is simply detailing how to do it. Jeez -- this a long way from uke refinishing. I'm checking out. Clark Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 7:12:26 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 7:18:40 PM) My personal goals in this thread have been to counter the assertions made about poly UV finishes by Kanile'a, to provide some provocative food for though to help players and collectors understand the different finishes available and the rationale for their use, and to amuse myself while i carve some necks. Good luck with your french polishing experiments Clark ! Posted By: rar jungle Date: 11/22/2007 8:12:44 PM how about just no finish at all? for optimum sound quality most ever. and even more eco friendly. i heard about the japanese planing technique where the wood is so finely planed that it doesn't need a finish. i am not sure if this could work for all types of wood, and i am just a novice, but i think after reading this entire thread i am pretty sure that it is a good idea. maybe it won't be as beautiful though, but the sound could be best. what is that technique called? does anyone know what i am talking about. i am drinking milwaukees ice, sorry. Posted By: yodelinglee Date: 11/22/2007 9:22:08 PM Mr. King, I have the most respect for you as a fine luthier, your great website, and your knowlege of woods. What I don't understand is you going after Kanile'a. I know Joe, Kristen, and Bill personally, and I believe that they are most sincere in what they feel is right for them, their employees, and any "green" issues. Good for them! Is there something else here? I think the world wide popularity of their instruments speaks well for them. I love the instrument that Kanile'a made for me. There are many paths to take in finishing, each to his own. Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 10:03:41 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 10:30:31 PM) yodelinglee, i am sorry if it looks like i am 'going after' Kanile'a. I'm not. I'm sure they are responsible folks building a successful product and i wish them all the best. I'm just not fond of poly finishes. When someone tries to gain a competitive advantage by claiming that their choice of finish is superior because it is greener or healthier than the alternatives, i feel compelled to speak. No one will ever convince me that synthetic finishes which take hundred or even thousands of years to biodegrade are environmentally friendly. Most of the claims for environmental friendliness of UV cured polyester finishes are based on VOC content, which is admittedly lower than other products like McFadden's lacquer. But the VOC content is only one aspect of the environmental impact of the material and there are many other considerations in assessing the environmental impact. And anyway, like John implied, most of the people spraying these things are probably driving to work in a car that itself emits more pollution than the finishing process. As far as i can tell, these finishes are adopted primarily because they cost less, due to the improved production efficencies obtained from their use in a factory environment. I understand that is important to Kanile'a and others. Please read the Finishing Today article i linked to for testimony to this rationale. As a final note, finishes vary in another important property that should be important to players - how they feel on the neck of the ukulele. I find french polish has the best feel, it is fast and dry, then tung oil/wax, followed by nitro and then the poly finishes, both of which have perceptably more drag. Posted By: allenhopkins Date: 11/22/2007 10:07:22 PM Jeez, one hundred thirty postings on the subject of ukulele finishes! Who woulda thunk it? And the passion -- the wit -- the incisive intellectual analysis -- the moralizing... Not that we shouldn't be doing the right thing, but guys, we're talking UKULELES here. The total amount of whatever sprayed or daubed on all the ukes ever made, wouldn't equal one week's paint-and-finish work in a single automobile plant. Rather than flaming each other, shouldn't we be going after Peruvian lead smelters (owned by US firms), or Chinese factories that poison millions of people every day? I admire the expertise, integrity, and ethical sensitivity of all the builders who've posted here, but I guess I'd turn down the rhetoric and look for larger issues to pursue. Posted By: William King Date: 11/22/2007 10:10:50 PM   (Updated: 11/22/2007 10:15:04 PM) Allen, until you've had to deal with the finishing problems in musical instrument manufacture you won't have a clue. Its an important issue to luthiers because the choices make all the difference between profitability and loss. Please save the Jeez stufff for somewhere else. If you're not interested in this thread, click off. Posted By: Taco Man Date: 11/22/2007 10:33:17 PM .....Seems to me the best tone can be produced by energizing the string at the mid point between the fretted string and the bridge. Nancy's suggestion is in line with that thinking for tones produced from "long strings", those fretted somewhat near the nut. I suppose some may indeed move their attacking fingers depending on the fretted strings. As one approaches the bridge the tones become less mellow, much "harder" in sound. I finger pick mostly and for me tone is everything. Strumming is a different matter. Damn good "finish discussion" and Happy Thanksgiving to one and all. Taco Posted By: allenhopkins Date: 11/22/2007 10:42:57 PM Mr. King, I still admire your expertise, integrity, and ethical sensitivity, regardless of what you think of my posting. Happy Thanksgiving. Posted By: yodelinglee Date: 11/22/2007 11:10:32 PM Mr. King, thank you for your response. As I said earlier, this has been a great learning thread for someone like me who has a science-based background. I wish you a Happy Thanksgiving Posted By: duane Date: 11/23/2007 12:22:43 AM   (Updated: 11/23/2007 12:24:12 AM) Oh please Rick, I dare say I was building ukes long before you started and you and others certainly don't build my market for me. It may in fact be the other way around. For me, a finish must be thin, move and age with the wood it is on, be good looking and repairable. I hate the dunked shiny gloss plastic look. It makes my fingers puke. I like nitro and shellac, I don't really care what others use. Like William, I don't like false or misleading claims. Many times a dealer will talk about the finish on their ukes as a high gloss or satin finish. That is not a finish, that is a description of a finish. If they are so proud of their finish, at least they can say what it is. I have no more to say on this subject unless something relevant comes up. Posted By: Aaron Oya Date: 11/23/2007 1:56:35 AM I have a tendency to kill threads at time, and I truly hope this is not one of them. Not that I enjoy seeing battles, quite the contrary, I enjoy seeing passion, and this thread has it. I stated earlier that there is a LOT going on at the builder level that the layman may not see. Given some of the statements, particularly Rick's "broad statement", I must be somewhat of an anomaly. I am a small builder, but I for sure understand the business aspect of the field due to my close relationship to factory owners. And I, for one, appreciate them (the factories), and agree with how the market is shaped. I view them as the Starbucks of our craft, and thank them, and guys like John (especially) for creating the market. Why do I single out John? Well, as an acquaintance of mine in the coffee business stated, "Starbucks made it Okay to pay $4 for a cup of coffee." John, in my mind, has opened the door to get custom pricing to where they should be. Otherwise, I'm sure the market would be hard to bear for a $5K Jake Special, or a $4.5K Masterpiece Spectre. Most small builders here have great reputations, as craftsmen, and artists, and deserve what they deserve. From a production standpoint, and knowing what goes into building, I cannot comprehend how you can buy a Tenor `ukulele from Rick, Joe or Paul (and others) for less than $1K. Yet, you can. Some may disagree with me and shun me for being a small builder selling out for money and not love of the craft. No apologies from me, I do love what I do, and I don't want to be in production. I can tell you that Rick, Paul, Joe and John carry with them more than an affinity for the craft, and I view them as very fortunate to impact the market with their business as they choose it to be. Yes, their business, which last I checked, is for profit. How many of us make a living doing what we want, the way we want, and making what we want? BTW, I use Poly not to save money. I can tell you that my material cost more than DOUBLED when I switched from Nitro. William hinted at the purpose of this thread, and not surprisingly, it has been mostly builder driven. I'm sure wearymicrobe has the answer that was looked for by now. I'm just curious what the players think. In a previous thread I started, I was surprised to learn that those who responded looked for a satin finish (though pore and pore-free was not addressed), and fewer wanted a gloss finish. Yet, all builders here do gloss finishes (I assume). The wonders of this board never ceases - I would imagine a player would only identify with finish from a gloss/satin standpoint, and not from a material standpoint. I haven't had a client be adamant about, "I want you to use XXX (fill in the blank) for a finish." I use what I use, and that's that. I don't offer FP, like Dave doesn't offer a sprayed finish. I think a player goes to a builder, or a factory product because of their product, and not their finish. I don't think this thread changes that. Of course, I may be wrong. Has this thread changed the way players look at finish materials, and if so, what has changed? Wearymicrobe, what are you thinking right about now? Posted By: jeanadriane Date: 11/23/2007 6:53:31 AM While we’re waiting for Wearymicrobe, let me say how much I appreciate the discussion in this thread with so much interesting and passionate entries from the builders, production or not. Your involvement and commitment are totally impressive. This thread is a great read full of information and I learned a lot from it - thank you very much y’all! Did it change how I think about finishes? I think it made me more aware of the various aspects that are involved in choosing a finish. It made me think about the beautiful ukuleles I’ve seen and their finishes. Also I know some highly reputed ukuleles whose looks disappointed me and I now realize it’s the vulnerability of FP, those instruments just needed a little touch-up or better care. My own (sibling) ukes are poly finished, one satin and one a thin non-porefilled gloss, and tho the gloss stays perfect and the satin shows marks, I love the satin best. Posted By: wearymicrobe Date: 11/23/2007 2:14:01 PM   (Updated: 11/23/2007 2:14:51 PM) Well I did get all the info I needed out of this, I will have to make a decision based on that for future purchases. I can say that I understand the difference between a production shop and a home builder, I spend a good amount of my non uke time getting people into large scale production lines and automation for batch processing so the give and take as well as the financial implications are not lost on me. I think we should put this thread to bed because we have all stated our opinions and since we hold these dear to ourself I doubt we are going to change each others minds. But knowing where everybody stands on a issue is beneficial as well and if we disagree then at least we understand each others motivation a little better and the underlaying reasons. I will keep a few other questions that I have to myself for the time being on other issues because I don;t want to start another large post and clog up the board. But I am working with some pick noise generators right now as a hint. So Aloha Ahiahi to all. Posted By: rar jungle Date: 11/23/2007 2:31:46 PM   (Updated: 11/23/2007 2:45:04 PM) Nobody responded to my comment, I guess cause I was drinking Milwaukees Ice, or something. So I did further research on my own on this Japanese polishing plane. It appears that you don't need any finish at all if you finish wood this way. However, I don't know any of the details, so it may be appropriate only for certain woods or final products. Here is a quote: "The blade of the Japanese plane is routinely sharpened to the extent that it can shave hair like a razor. The smooth shear of the wood fibers by the razor-sharp blade combines with the friction heat of the gliding surface to burnish and seal in the wood's natural oils. Light is reflected cleanly from the wood, not scattered as it is when even a very fine sandpaper is used. One can almost see into the planed wood's cellular structure. This sparkling effect is unlike that obtained by any other finishing method. Wood finished with a Japanese plane requires neither sanding nor oiling." Shoji: How to Design, Build, and Install Japanese Screens By Jay Van Arsdale So I don't know if this would work from something like an ukulele, but if it would work, I think this would allow the best transmission of sound, and be the most elegant solution. After some further thought: Well, maybe it only works on flat surfaces I suppose. But maybe there is a way to get similar effect even on curves. Maybe the bending of the wood won't allow this technique....? Posted By: DougD Date: 11/23/2007 2:46:06 PM rar, the problem with no finish on an instrument is that wood gets dirty with handling. Thats actually one of the main purposes of a finish. Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/23/2007 3:14:55 PM   (Updated: 11/23/2007 3:24:36 PM) You had asked for a few players' thoughts, I'll add mine here. I'm with Rick Turner in saying that if a finish is thin then it's OK with me. I know production houses have to deal with special issues regarding spray finishes and I feel for them. This is a difficult subject because there are health risks for a lot of the workers just so people can have shiny ukes. Rick also questioned one comment about fine instruments being treated with respect, responding, "Yeah, and how do you enforce that commandment? You can't." My feeling is that it's not the manufacturer's duty to enforce anything, it's the player's responsibility in handling. In 40 years playing guitars and now two years with ukes, I never thought once that my strumming style or accidental bumps or scratches were the manufacturer's responsibility. I also never felt it was their responsibility to provide me with a bulletproof instrument. I think anyone who buys an instrument with those expectations is unrealistic, and if they return an instrument because of a scratch or nick they caused, then I feel that's their problem. I scratched the heck out of my iPod nano by throwing it in my purse without a case and forgetting about it, possibly damaging the membrane controls on the front. But it's not Apple's fault I did that, even if the front of the iPod might be constructed to be a bit fragile, it's totally my fault and I accept that responsibility. My personal tastes lean toward French polish, tru oil or very, very light matte or semi-gloss finishes that don't impede the instrument's tone and that bring out the best of the wood's natural beauty. I think that heavy finishes affect the sound quality more often than not, and I just don't care for the look. If I could have all my instruments French polished I would, it's my favorite finish, it suits the way I play and care for instruments, and it's fixable if I ever have an accident with one. Posted By: rar jungle Date: 11/23/2007 3:40:18 PM Thanks Doug, "rar, the problem with no finish on an instrument is that wood gets dirty with handling. Thats actually one of the main purposes of a finish." Would this also be true if the wood was sealed by using this polishing plane technique, or something similar? I have no idea. Just a question. But people on this thread are discussing french polishing, which I know nothing about either, but apparently you can barely touch it, and you've ruined it. This Japanese finishing technique can probably only be used with certain woods and surfaces, and may not be appropriate for something that is to be handled a lot, but that is my question. Anyways, I think it points in an interesting direction: "burnish and seal in the wood's natural oils", plane super smooth rather than sanding, etc. Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/23/2007 3:55:19 PM Rar, sorry, but that simply will not work as stated. It's a very nice myth and doesn't apply at all to wood that's going to be handled a lot. But if you want to find out for yourself, then get someone to build you a uke that way. That's why God invented custom uke makers...so you can get exactly what you want. If someone wants a French polished, oiled (and we're really talking wiped on varnish here...), or nitro finished uke from us, we're happy to build it...with an appropriate upcharge and a clear understanding of the issues involved. We made some all glossed nitro finished ukes for Gryphon Stringed Instruments, and the next time they wanted full gloss, they went for poly. Why? Because they couldn't tell the difference in the look and the poly finish holds up much better in a store environment. And Duane, I'll grant that you may have made more ukes than I. I'm not so sure you've been a pro luthier since 1963, though, which is when I apprenticed as a guitar repairman. This isn't a pissing contest, and my point was merely that I've been there, done that, and my experience of 44 years as a luthier has led me to a very similar place as Paul and Joe. I just haven't seen the need to go to UV cure, though the basic chemistry of our finishes is all the same. There's nothing particularly different about finishing ukes that doesn't apply to guitars. Building them...well there are some interesting differences, but that's for a different thread. Just a hint...I've found that the "rules" of tonewood are very different for ukes, and woods that I'd never consider for guitar tops can make fabulous uke tops. Posted By: RSteve Date: 11/23/2007 6:33:41 PM My sincere thanks to all who contributed positively to this thread. It's a document that I'll print and read several times. I have never crafted a musical instrument, nor do I expect to ever venture an attempt. I have tremendous respect for all who have combined art, craft, and science to create the tools for those who will ultimately use them to make music. I do have a question. In a post above, I believe there was a reference to the bout being finished, then the bridge glued on. Is this common practice? I confess to popping the bridges on two old baritone ukes. Neither had finish under the bridge, so I assumed that the bridge was applied to bare wood. What is common practice? Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/23/2007 6:44:01 PM Common practice is to mask off the bridge footprint about 1/32" smaller than the bridge itself on the top before finish. Do the finish and rub-out, then peel the tape and glue bare wood to bare wood. I have glued bridges directly to the polyester finish with great results as the finishing schedule I've developed results in a finish film that literally sticks like glue to the wood surface. I use medium viscosity CA (superglue) after cleaning the surface of any residual traces of buffing compound. Any glue squeeze-out can be cleaned up with superglue solvent. This is a system we'll probably make standard on all high gloss instruments. Posted By: RSteve Date: 11/24/2007 12:39:59 AM Thank you, Rick Steve Posted By: hoaryhead Date: 11/24/2007 2:38:05 AM "This isn't a pissing contest." Since when? Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/24/2007 2:54:33 AM Well, there has been some disinformation posted here by some absolutists who don't care to make room for a range of points of view. All the finishes mentioned here have strong points and weak points. Those of us who have done a lot of finish work with a wide range of the available materials tend to have our preferences backed by very sound reasoning. Those who don't have much experience with the full range of available finishes seem to get bogged down in very firm opinions in a very narrow dimension, and no discussion like this can take place without a lot of bad blood spewing forth. Funny how that works. Every tradition starts with an innovation... Posted By: William King Date: 11/24/2007 10:19:32 AM   (Updated: 11/24/2007 10:50:12 AM) Rick, waiting for the end of a thread to get in the last word and slag off your oponents with snide remarks isn't a very nice rhetorical technique. I was going to let this thread quietly finish until you began the ad hominem attacks ie: 'disinformation', implied lack of experience, 'firm opinions in very narrow dimensions'. Lets take a look at the disinformation stuff, or the stupid talking points stuff you mentioned earlier. Would you like to be more specific, using 'very sound reasoning' or would you like to let this informative thread politely finish ? Mahalo ! Posted By: William King Date: 11/24/2007 10:49:35 AM Posted By: ukulelejesus Date: 11/24/2007 11:17:52 AM Hola Amigos. From my perspective this has been a most interesting thread. 35 of 152 posts (23%) by one guy trying to say he doesn't like Poly finishes. OK William, we get it. Amen, UJ Posted By: William King Date: 11/24/2007 11:32:17 AM ukulelejesus, that is a mischaracterization of my contributions to this thread by an anonymous poster. I'll revisit this thread this evening and respond to any reasoned arguments about claims for green-ness of UV poly finishes. Otherwise, i'm finished (no pun intended :-) Posted By: ukulelejesus Date: 11/24/2007 11:40:17 AM Hola Amigos - And to allenhopkins: Despite what William says, it's perfectly OK to use Jeez. I like the sound of it. Amen, UJ Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/24/2007 11:43:58 AM William, as they say, don't knock it 'til you've tried it. I have used French polish, varnish, brushed and sprayed shellac, nitro lacquer, four different kinds of oil finishes (some of which are really varnishes), and the worst of all, two different waterborne lacquers. I've done good finishes with all of those materials (except the waterborne junk). I now choose to use catalyzed polyester on 98% of the instruments that go out my door. Posted By: RSteve Date: 11/24/2007 7:05:55 PM Is there a clear definition of what constitutes a French polish finish? I always believed it was a product of shellac and alcohol and extremely skilled application. Of late, I've read that some woodworkers refer to a French polish finish more in terms of application than medium. They may use Behlen Qualasole, a padding lacquer, and refer to the finish as French polish. Are the ukulele makers in this discussion referring to a French polish finish soley as one comprised of alcohol and shellac or do they also deem a padded lacquer finish as French polished? Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/24/2007 7:15:03 PM French polish is really just a technique for applying a shellac-based finish. Often drying oils like walnut oil or linseed are added in small quantities, and some add resins such as sandarac or gum benzoin which makes the mixture into a spirit varnish. The technique involves putting on infinitesimally thin layers of the liquid with a pad rubbing over and over in a figure 8, circular, or straight line pattern. Each time the pad glides over the wood, a thin layer of finish is applied and burnished into and onto the wood. There are excellent tutorials available on-line and in video format from John Mello and also Ron Fernandez. It's a very labor intensive method that takes a lot of skill. The resultant finish is incredibly thin, but not very durable. It is beautiful, though. French polish is the easiest to touch up finish of all, and a lot of the best 18th and 19th century furniture was French polished and often touched up from time to time. French polish is also used in conjunction with brushed-on varnish by a number of high-end mandolin makers...but we're talking instruments the size of ukes that go for $10,000.00 and more. Posted By: jk93117 Date: 11/24/2007 7:50:07 PM Rick - It would seem that since there is so much manual effort required to apply a french polish all you guys would have tried buffers or putting a pad on a sander or some modification to a power tool at some point. Why doesn't any type of power tool work for french polishing? Posted By: John Mayes Date: 11/24/2007 8:05:32 PM Cool discussion. I'm late into this one.. (too much turkey eaten and too much napping to blame.) On my guitars I've used everything from a couple different waterbornes (I agree with you Rick that the stuff is not so great), Nitro ( three different brands), Chemical cured urethane (McFaddens), varnish (loved the look hated the feel), and french polish. On my guitars I've used urethane for the past 70 or so. (nitor on the previous 50 or so and experimented on the first couple dozen.) My guitars have never sounded better (although I belive that's my skill improving not the finish), and they look awesome too. The urethane was made by US Paint, called firefox clear. It's average thickness is around .004 I've repaired it with Cyno with no problems. It may not be 100% invisible, but nitro sticks out like a sore thumb when touched up unless it's left to cure for a month or more. I think tonally french polish is the best, but it's hard to have some people take care of it properly. Luckily though it does touch up very easy, and invisible. On my ukes I've been using Nitro only. Not because I don't think the urethane wouldn't be great as I think it would be just as good tonally, but I like the slightly warmer coloring nitro gives. Just a visual thing. There are so many finishes that can be used, and most work really well. It's more in the skill of the application than the finish itself imo. Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/24/2007 8:19:07 PM John, get some MEK soluble yellow dye from US Cellulose...it's the same stuff that LMI sells as metal acid dye, but from US it's about $44.00 a gallon. Squirt a few drops into your urethane...not enough to be obvious, just enough to knock the color back to mellow (yeah, there's a pun in there...). I do this with my polyester to counteract the bluish tinge from the cobalt drier, and instead of going to green, it goes to a nice light amber tint. You'll get close to that warmth of nitro. BTW...total agreement here on the lack of repairability of nitro unless way more time goes into it than most clients will put up with. For an interesting view of French polish...Ron Fernandez stopped taking on contract FP jobs, but when he was doing it, the cost to do a guitar was about $850.00. That was just for the finish... Posted By: Dave Means Date: 11/24/2007 9:23:19 PM RSteve, when I first started, I was finishing off my FP jobs with a top session of Qualisole (which is actually a "padding lacquer") in hopes that it would improve the durability of the finish, especially with regards to alcohol resistance. After a while I realized it really didn't do that, so I've been using straight shellac from start to finish for several years now. jk92117, I know you addressed your question to Rick, but please let me take a shot. French polishing is, above all, a very tactile thing. Without the feedback through your fingertips from the muneca, you simply couldn't do it. Your fingertips tell you when the muneca is too wet or too dry. Subtle differences in the drag over the surface let you know whether you are actually applying finish or taking it off, whether you need to apply more pressure or back off, and whether the amount of finish that you've already applied in a single session has reached the limit. No machine is going to give you the necessary feedback. Besides... it wouldn't be as quiet, relaxing, and enjoyable. -- Dave Posted By: NinaC Date: 11/24/2007 9:46:30 PM " French polish is also used in conjunction with brushed-on varnish by a number of high-end mandolin makers...but we're talking instruments the size of ukes that go for $10,000.00 and more." What I don't understand, though, is if it takes maybe 16 hours of labor how this is so much more difficult than what you are doing with the UV or poly finishes. I'm not saying that the 16 hour process is equivalent to what goes on with 100,000 dollar instruments, but neither is the UV or poly. I just don't quite understand why French polish is considered so labor intensive when the other processes described seem just as much so, plus more hazardous. Posted By: Rick Turner Date: 11/24/2007 9:56:42 PM Nina, it doesn't take me 16 hours to do a poly finish; I have maybe three hours into it spread out over four or five days. Learn to French polish...then you'll understand. The hardest thing is to know when to stop... Posted By: William King Date: 11/24/2007 11:36:00 PM NinaC, more hazardous is an understatement. You need to wear the equivalent of a spacesuit to handle some of the chemicals in some of these poly finishing schedules. Posted By: Aaron Oya Date: 11/25/2007 2:20:58 AM Here's an excerpt from Taylor's website. Why is it pertinent to this thread? They were instrumental in pioneering the system: "Finding "a better way" is a constant mantra around the Taylor factory. When it came to guitar finish, a better way was an imperative in the early 90s. Traditional lacquer finishes, though used for generations, can take several days to fully cure, are susceptible to cold-checking (a web-like pattern of fine cracking caused by extreme temperature fluctuation), and are environmentally un-friendly. The charge for a better finish began with Bob Taylor and staffer Matt Guzzetta interacting with various ultraviolet (UV) bulb manufacturers. Despite being rebuffed and told that a UV-cured finish wasn't possible with wood as a material, the two nurtured direct relationships with chemists at various chemical companies, working together to find a solution. After exhaustive testing, the development process finally bore fruit in 1995 with the invention of a finish that is cured using UV light. It's a finish that's fast-curing, thin, durable, and versatile, and we've been using it ever since. Using a polyester-type resin that's UV-activated, the new finish proved to be easier to use than Nitrocellulose-type lacquers. It's clearer, so the wood grain/coloration is more natural and distinct. It also doesn't yellow like lacquer, resists scratching and cracking, and doesn't cold-check. It contains as many "solids" as thicker finishes, so a thinner application provides the same protection while allowing the tonewood to breath for a more natural tone. It also ages the same way that we like a good lacquer finish to age, allowing the guitar to "open up" as it's played over the years. Once the UV finish has been applied to a guitar, it's taken to a custom-made UV oven for curing. While lacquer finishes can take days to cure, the UV-curing process speeds it up to a matter of minutes, thanks to an added photo-initiator. The result is speedy production and the elimination of countless hours of harmful curing time, in which toxins are released into the environment. Our polyester-based finish is about 85% resin and only 15% solvents (almost the exact reverse of the polyurethane ratio). UV-curing produces a greatly reduced Volatile Organic Compounds rate, the measure of pollutants released into the air. For our efforts, we earned not only a better finish, but a commendation from the San Diego County Air Pollution Control District. We were also able to exceed all the requirements of the Environmental Protection Agency, reduce the time it takes to complete a guitar, and apply finishes that are thinner, better-sounding, better-looking, and longer-lasting. And, because the finish is completely cured when it leaves the curing chamber, it doesn't sink into the wood's pores like our old solvent-release finishes. So, even though our finish is thinner than ever before, it still retains the "traditional" beauty of the old thicker lacquer-based finishes." I would imagine volume dictates Taylor to finish a guitar in a day, whereas other "smaller volume" operations can spread it over 3 or 4. Again, I think its important to note that Taylor's UV is a method of curing, and not the base product itself. Base product is polyester. 1 day cure, or 3-4, builder's choice. What's the end result? VOC, HAP or isocyanate - either way, PPE is required - and right or wrong, I used gloves when doing FP, and a mask.

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